Rediscovering Connection with Shelley Doyle
Welcome to Rediscovering Connection, a Podcast where you'll hear from innovative leaders, researchers, community builders, and facilitators, on the frontier of connection.
Through soulful conversations, we explore new ways to connect, on-and-offline, to support our social and digital wellbeing.
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Rediscovering Connection with Shelley Doyle
#12 - Candice Neveu - Navigating Mid-Career Transitions and Virtual Connections
Candice Neveu is a success coach for mid-career professionals.
In this episode of Rediscovering Connection, Candice shares valuable insights for anyone thinking of making a mid-career transition.
Candice shares her recent TEDx journey and we discuss bridging the gap between physical connection, virtual communities, and integrating technology into our personal relationships.
Connect with Candice on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/candice-neveu-a055034b/
Or visit her website:
https://improveyourself.ca/
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I hope our conversation inspires you to rediscover connection in your personal or professional life.
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Love & sparkles,
✨Shelley
About Your Host
Hi, I'm Shelley Doyle, a Social Wealth Strategist and Connection Coach. I empower remote and nomadic founders and leaders who crave deeper connections to activate their social wealth, so they can feel trusted, supported, and truly connected—both online and offline—no matter where they are.
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I combine cutting-edge research on social wealth, social wellbeing and social capital with two decades in corporate communications to deliver mind-shifting talks, workshops, and programs around the world.
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Hello, this is Shelley Keridwen and this is Rediscovering Connection, and I'm here today with Candice Neveu and I'm super excited. Candice and I met coming on foot a year ago surrounding the TEDx that Candice spoke at, and she has since been profiled by TED as one of the key speakers from the Royal Roads TEDx. And Candice is a coach, a success coach, particularly for mid-career professionals, whether they're changing course or going back to university. So what Candice does totally speaks to me, since I am a mid-career professional at school. So welcome, I'm super excited to see you today.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, Shelley. I'm really excited to be here.
Speaker 1:So we're going to delve into quite a lot today. So I would love to delve into a little bit about your TEDx journey and I know a TEDx is something that a lot of people aspire to do these days. Like it's a fantastic platform, it's a big process. How was your journey and how did it help you to connect with people, to let them know that you were doing it? Like, I imagine a lot of people maybe didn't even know the type of work that you're in, so was this a channel that you were able to use to tell people your story?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really interesting because you're right that the TEDx is a process, for sure, and I didn't appreciate it, never having done it before, what a process it was, but it was really wonderful. The TEDx itself was in February, but the process started in October of the previous year and so you're really immersed in it for what was that? Four months or so. But in coming to it, I am a person who puts intentions out there, and one of the intentions that I had was the need to become more visible and to connect with more people, because I am a people person, I love connection, I love helping people, and realize that a lot of the people I worked with I just wanted to get my message out more broadly. I had no idea what that form would take and I was approached to do a TEDx, to do a talk at this TEDx, and it was scary when I got the invitation because I wasn't aspiring to do a TEDx, but that was what the universe put in my path, and so I said yes and I auditioned, which is an exciting process in itself, but I made it through and the journey was really unbelievable really. I mean on so many levels. First off, just being in a room with 11 other speakers who are incredible humans in their own right, in their own worlds, was amazing, just amazing. And I was often with the same group of people, so that was lots of fun.
Speaker 2:And being able to connect with them and listen to their stories and to write my own story and I think it's important to.
Speaker 2:I think this happens to all of us a little bit when it's our own story, we're a little too close to it. So it was, I got an inspiration to write my, as I had no sense what I was going to say initially or what angle I wanted to take, because I love doing a lot of things and so I wasn't entirely sure how to approach the theme of changemaking from my perspective. But I was inspired one early morning to write out my talk and really share the experience of going back to school for the first time. Well, not Well like when I went back earlier mid-career for me initially, because that particular experience really never Like it was a formative one for me in terms of what, how it shaped the rest of the work that I did as a university instructor and then as a coach, working with adults who return to school, because it's not an easy transition. So yeah, not sure I answered that whole question or I went off there.
Speaker 1:How did you let people know before it was actually published? Because it took ages between having them filmed and then actually publishing it did take ages.
Speaker 2:That is totally true. So we had. Well, even just initially, when I was invited to do the talk, I was a little shy to share it because I I just, I think it just had to sink in that I was one of the chosen speakers and that I was going to do it, and that was super exciting. And then, leading up to it, I was telling everybody and trying to invite some people to come. You know, we had a limited engagement so, but for us, you know, we were told it would take about six to eight weeks and mine took four months, but in the end it was because Ted had decided to feature it and they were doing stuff behind the scenes, I guess.
Speaker 2:And so when I found out that it was going live I found out a week before it went live I sort of went into a little bit of an excitement spin and I did tell people. And then I so I had a bunch of people watching when it went live on YouTube and I was actually at the Van Gogh exhibit with my daughter because I felt that I needed a moment where I needed to be not at my computer, I needed to be out, you know, in space, with people who I loved just away and actually missed it going live myself. And my brother texted me and one of my best friends texted me and said oh hey, you've got 3,500 views and so yeah, and that's gone up quite a bit since then it has.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think I glanced the other day. I think it's at about 80,000 right now. So Beautiful.
Speaker 1:And what's coming up when you say you just felt like you needed to be with people, like as somebody whose work is generally behind a screen when you're coaching clients. How do you find ways to connect physically and virtually when you work this way?
Speaker 2:That is a really good question and one that I've been really working with a lot in the last 12 months. I think that I've been working online in a number of capacities for 20 years or so, so I've become comfortable in the virtual space, but I always had that in-person outlet when I was in the classroom and working with people, and so I could, you know, the pandemic switchover was comfortable for me in that I am comfortable teaching online and so I just shifted into that space. What I didn't appreciate as much is that, even though you're virtual, there's an element of energetic connection. I think that happens in person with people and a skill set that you maintain, hone practice when you are in person with people. That's different than being online, and so, for the online part, I sought out communities.
Speaker 2:I'm an entrepreneur, and so I was in business circles, with women in coaching containers, so I had, and I made a point of being with people in those ways, because, you know, I'm a people person, so I need people and not just my clients, right, which are beautiful, amazing people, but I also, you know, you need peers and other types of connections, and so I found that to be really fulfilling. But that became very comfortable, and one of the things that I realized in the experience of doing my TEDx was we had to meet periodically. I had to go and be in a room with people I didn't know, you know, and those skills had weakened over a couple years of just rusty use, right, and so I realized that being in rooms with people I didn't know and meeting more people and practicing being in other people's energies, and all of that was absolutely something I love, but also an important aspect of being able to connect at a deeper level with people.
Speaker 1:I think so wow, yeah, thank you for sharing and such a I think that's such a really important nugget that you shared about you are out of practice. You are out of practice being in spaces with new people, with new energy and getting comfortable with that again.
Speaker 2:It's, and you know, years ago, when I first started working online or working virtually years and years ago, it was very it was post nine eleven and I had shifted to working from an office to working from home and I had an opportunity to go and do an onsite with a client and I actually had a bit of a panic attack and I remember being in my kitchen, you know, melting down that I couldn't do this thing because, you know, I was also having to travel by myself for the first time and it kind of like it was. There was a lot of first happening, but part of it was I had very quickly gotten out of the habit of, you know, being with people and I'm a highly sensitive person, I've come to realize over the years, and so, as people's energies, I interact with them and that can be really awesome and very energizing. And then also, when I'm not interacting with people in real life, it takes me a little bit to remember how to mesh energies and how to go with the flow of people's energies and that kind of thing. So for me it is something that, is it something that I need to maintain? And so nowadays, you know, after Ted, and then just you know, being able to go out now and do things.
Speaker 2:I'm in my community a lot of the time. I don't Drive into town because I don't need to commute anymore. So I make an ad. Joined a local women's group, I'm reaching out. I'm going to my first book club tomorrow like lot, trying to find ways to connect in person, especially because this is such a digital age. We're so interfaced with phones or screens of some form and the connection that you make, being in person with people Is More powerful. I think doesn't mean the others are not powerful, but I think there's really something to be said for being in person with people and I think Connecting and with another person's humanity. Would you know if we could do that more often in person? I think that the animosity that exists in the world at some sort of low hum could be improved.
Speaker 1:Something that I'm really feeling is having enriching hybrid relationships with people, like recently I filmed a podcast with a Amelia Tamborini, and she had been introduced to me by a mutual friend so I hadn't met her in person before. I had her on my podcast. And then I met her in person at the disrupt HR event in Victoria and it was wild, like the feeling of emotion that I felt so connected with this woman that I hadn't even physically met yet. We'd had this like deep dive conversation with each other. And I have a couple of friends now who one particular who lives in Nanaimo, and so we don't see each other physically very often but we see each other virtually a little bit more. And just finding a way to navigate the rhythm of a hybrid relationship with people I think is very enriching and I wonder if there's some people that we only have a Physical relationship with, if maybe you're even with with technology what it is, maybe we even missing a layer, that we could be going deeper with each other if we brought in A hybrid piece that relationship.
Speaker 2:I think that's a really interesting point that you make. I have a one of my best I got color my sister friend. I've known her for decades and decades and decades and she lives not that far from me. But our lives are just such that we aren't able to intersect as often as we like, and so one of the modes that we Use to stay in touch now is a program called Marco Polo, and it's a video messaging app, I guess, for lack of a better description, and it's not real time, so you record yourself and then they reply kind of like a phone call, just with a video, and so that has been really great because we're always, we have the kind of friendship where we can Go for long periods and not be weird and still come together.
Speaker 2:But what we were lacking was the currency of each other's lives right, being able to know you know, like I know, that her Son played about his last basketball game last night.
Speaker 2:Right, you know where I would have you know, have no idea about that if we weren't using something like Marco Polo, and so it To speak to your point, that's exactly what's been able to happen is that we've been able to bring ourselves Into community more and connection more through a hybrid app.
Speaker 2:And I would say to you know, even to your point about meeting this woman after you met virtually, you know, I have some friends who I Cannot wait to meet virtually one day, because it's just going to be so precious to be able to be in each other's you know Presence, even though, right, we spent all our time virtually, and that virtual experience has already enriched the future physical experience when we're able to be together, because we bring all of our knowledge of each other forward, right. And so I think that there is definitely a place for hybrid connection and definitely something, you know, it took a while for our friend, my friend and I, to click on to Marco, because we're going to see, you know, we should really just try to get together and it was like this, trying and trying, and trying and trying, and it never happened, whereas with the, with having that virtual option, all of a sudden, now it's the norm and it makes it easier to, you know, get together a little bit more often, because now we know what's going on in each other's lives, right.
Speaker 1:I'm a big Marco Polo fan. I really enjoy I don't have too many friends on it and but those that I do, you know it feels like you can really just kind of keep that rhythm, keep that dialogue going and I feel like it's it takes the pressure off. Alive call. These days I don't know if we've just the way that we behave is changing, but on a live call it's almost like you really have to listen to, not be planning what you're going to say next.
Speaker 2:Hmm, that's interesting. Yeah, and yeah, yeah, I'm a fast thinker that way, and I would. I'll totally own up to the fact that I love to think about what I want to say in response, because I'm so into the ideas, and so, yeah, that's a wonderful observation. I do find with Marco that I will take notes, sometimes on the note screen, and the nice thing too is that I think one of the For better or worse reasons that we have challenged with connection sometimes is that we Is the timepiece right, like we think connections going to take so much time, and not that we don't want to spend the time, but time is a premium for everyone and the you know pace of our lives and all of that sort of thing Whereas Marco allows you to have a conversation at least one side of conversation right.
Speaker 2:Give your bit and I can listen if it's, you know, she, she and I have very long conversations, so it takes me a couple times to listen, or I can speed her up if she's talking a little slow, and but I can listen when I have space to listen and then I'm able to respond. And and we have already established and I think that's an important thing too Is that you know, you don't have to respond to every single detail. I'm telling you, you know, it's not that kind of it doesn't lend itself to that kind of conversation. So if you forget things or you don't comment on things, it's okay, right, but there is a way to fit connection into the pace and the way that we live our lives, rather than decide we don't, we shouldn't, we can't connect because we have no time, right? I don't think. I think that's what our tendency is, but I think that there's enough innovative ways to build connection and not that not have that be the excuse.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and this is leaning into the work that I'm doing to really help people identify who the people are in their life, who they really want to nurture in this kind of inner circle. And the research is saying that we only have capacity for, say, 12 to 15 people in our inner circle. So they're the people that we do have that really regular, really open, vulnerable exchanges with. We don't have unlimited capacity. It's like once we figure out who those people are and that's through kind of testing, learning, seeing how the energy feels, because someone who was a major part in our life five, 10 years ago. Maybe there isn't that alignment right now in our lives and that's fine. Like people are going to ebb and flow through our lives, but maybe in another five years they're going to be back as part and maybe you will be doing Marcos to one another really regularly again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have another friend who's not on Marco but we share audio notes quite a lot but they can be quite, quite long and what we figured out was we just needed to mark what they were about. So we'll be like this one above is more work, this one below is more kind of relationships and stuff. So just having those markers. I think, marco, now you can put notes on them to make that a bit clearer, if you need to.
Speaker 2:I didn't know that I do that with Fox, or when I'm in my other groups where I'll say this is what I'm you know, or if we're in a group of people which I am in a few groups of, well put who it's actually directed to initially and stuff, so that that can be really helpful. Yeah, I didn't know that about Marco. I'll have to investigate.
Speaker 1:Fox is very similar to Marco right. It is another kind of walkie talkie style communication technique, but I hear it more for the work for coaches. Use box or a lot. I don't hear people using it much for personal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, and I think it is more of a work tool. I know a lot of coaches do use it and I'm in some circles where we started out as members of a coaching group and then we all ended, but we liked each other so much so we just created our own group. So we're doing, we're in community over there. Yeah, and same with. I find Fox is very similar to WhatsApp. So there's lots of, lots of tools out there, and I know a lot of my academic clients are on WhatsApp because that's how they communicate at school. So you know, I'm I'm kind of on a lot of platforms. I am sort of flexible to, however, people and that's actually something initially like speaking about connection and work.
Speaker 2:I had never experienced text coaching or support in that like before myself until, you know I guess it would be about a year and a half ago I was in a container where that was a component and at first I thought, oh well, that's not.
Speaker 2:That seems weird and how's that going to work.
Speaker 2:But I actually found it for me to be very helpful, because sometimes I just need to put something somewhere right and or I need, or I want to cheer, or we don't need to have, you know, and when you have coaching calls every week or every two weeks or whatever, there's things that happen between there, right, a lot of the stuff that happens with a coaching relationship happens outside of the coaching calls, and so being able to have that opportunity to share your wins, especially, and to celebrate and then to ask your questions or, to, you know, be witnessed, is really useful to have that tool, and I started incorporating that into my own practice and I noticed that you know, and I do appreciate folks who, for whom that's like, oh, I can't deal with that.
Speaker 2:I get that, but it is a really helpful tool and as a coach, I love to be able to be available for my clients, you know, within boundaries of course, but be able to be available to them in those moments when inspiration happens or they have this realization or they have a celebration. I encourage them to celebrate all the time, because our brains have a natural negativity bias. So the more that we can show the true evidence of progress and success, the better it is for our ability to do what you know, go after our goals or get what we want.
Speaker 1:Winning wins is so important. Something was just coming through to me just in terms of the healthy boundaries that you mentioned and with so many different communication tools, our fingertips, how do we, how do we create healthy boundaries? Like, I have a really close friend here, she I just spoke to her on Sunday and she's like we missed you at the Thanksgiving dinner on Friday and I was like I hadn't, I had no idea and I was invited through Facebook. And I very rarely use Facebook these days and I'm kind of coming off it more and more and it's like when we're present on so many channels, it's like people don't necessarily know how to reach us. So how can we be more? I guess with clients you can. You can either meet them where they're, where they are if they use a particular tool you can offer. But with friends as well, spread ourselves too thinly, and then we need to keep up with all these different channels if we are to kind of stay on top of all these invitations, which I'm very thankful for when I receive them.
Speaker 2:I have a couple of thoughts about that, I think. First, the thought that we need to be on all of the channels is problematic for me, because I think that there's an expectation and that's sort of the downside of social media, I think for especially, I think, for people not who are not, you know, in business, but also for people who are in business. I have a friend right now who is she's just, she's not a very social media person, but she's wrote her first book and it's a really great book, but she's having to promote it and she's she's chosen some of the platform she needs to be on, but she's feeling this pull to, kind of like, be everywhere. And for someone who's not used to being on social media, to be on one platform is a big lift. To be on five can shut you right down because it's too big of a lift, right. And so I think that the idea of having to be on all the platforms and I think people feel the need sometimes because I think, because they call them friends, even if they're not true connected friends, right there's friends of a variety of sorts, right Degrees that they need to be out there.
Speaker 2:So I think that that's something that, when I am coaching folks around the boundaries and overwhelm is looking at your inputs right away, like, where are you giving your energy, where, when you're on these channels? And some channels might feel great and some might not feel great. So if being on Facebook does not feel great, then let that one go and be on Instagram or beyond X or beyond, you know, linkedin or whatever, if that's your thing. So that would be the first thing. The second thing I think is communicating is always at the heart of boundaries anyway.
Speaker 2:So I think that you know, letting people know hey, I'm, you know, even if you pop on a Facebook to say hey, you know I'm or I'm, you'll find me more on LinkedIn. Or if you want to get a hold of me, the best way is to text me or email me or call whatever your your jam is. But to tell people how you want to be communicated with, because we do have all these channels and it's not realistic, I think, especially as more and more come online and different people have different tools, to assume that everybody's going to know where to find you and you need to let them know where you want to be communicated with, would be what you know, I would say, and I tell people all the time like I used to be on Instagram I'm still on Instagram, but that's. I'm shifting more to Facebook and LinkedIn for my business and I just show up there because I'm there already.
Speaker 1:So you know so you mentioned some of the containers that you that you've been in, that you are in, and are there any communities that have really been pivotal in in helping you since you went back to school? As a mid career professional, I'm really reinventing the next, the next version of Candice. Were any communities that were really helpful in shaping that that path to success for you?
Speaker 2:When I went back to do my masters, I did not cultivate community and that's one of the lessons I learned in that process. So I don't you know other outside of the classroom there wasn't really a lot of community when I went back you know, gosh, 16 or more years ago now for that time. But when I went and did my coach training four years ago or so, I found that the we were encouraged to connect with each other, partly for practice, and so what we created? An organic. Someone put a call out to you know people on the west coast because it's easier to do with time zones when everyone spread out everywhere. And I ended up in a little community with three other fellow coaches and they are, they were just. It was especially for doing training in a field that I finally felt like was completing me and that I was just so energized by. It really felt, and we talked about this a lot in our group about how we found our people, like it was like finding our people and having that sense, because you know this happens to a lot of people where, as they change and they shift and their interests go and they desire to show up in a particular way or they've come to a particular awareness and they want to do things, and this is true for people going back to school.
Speaker 2:People going back to school are often in their social groups, the only one going back to school and so it can be a really lonely time. And so, you know, I felt that, you know, being going back and being a coach not just going to conventional school was also important that I found my people there and so, and then, as a business person, I've been in business containers where I have been connecting with other women, usually women at the same level as me or slightly higher than me, which has been really helpful. I'm also now in a community, because this last year I've been working on developing, you know, more of my spirituality, and so I'm in a community called Holy Woman, which is fabulous and has been really wonderful as well, just very supportive, and you know you can. Communities where you can be yourself and just be seen are huge and feel supported and feel that people are experiencing a similar thing to you. There's a double edged sword to that one too, but we'll get to that in a second.
Speaker 2:But I definitely think that, especially for folks who are going back to school, finding a community of support with people who have either been back recently or are doing it right now is really important when you're mid career because you've got kids, usually pets, job, family, your own life, like all of these things, and school.
Speaker 2:And it is a unique experience when you commit to a one or two year program and you're saying I've, I've, I gotta say no to things, and sometimes that feels bad, right, and you can go into your group and be like kind of felt bad. I had to say you know, and they'll come in and give you love and support and go yeah, me too, or whatever right and help you with strategies. So it's really important, especially in this time. You know, when I did my masters, the pace of life was a little smaller than it is now and I was much younger, I was just in my like late 20s and so I was in a different stage of life and I think that, as a mid career person now going back, having that community, is really important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I totally hear you when, when you say that people don't relate. If friends, friends of yours, you know they're happy in their job, the life and, I guess, personally moving internationally to go back to education and I didn't I didn't have to decline all the invitations to focus on my studies because there weren't any back then. Thankfully, two years later there are. Things have shifted so I guess in some ways I had an opportunity to really immerse in learning and also to to create a bit of a community with my classmates, because there wasn't anyone else in my life then which helped to embed some of those learnings, because we could be talking about schoolwork with people who do relate.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, and I find that with my academic clients that they are coming into community with, most of them are in community in some level, whether it's just within the context of the course, where they have their forums or whatever. But there is an outside. I think one of our, our common friends, laura, calls it the third space, but this outside of the formal classroom where they're connecting on WhatsApp and they're they're talking, and here's the double edged part I mentioned earlier. So one of the challenges and I write about this in my blog to you but one of the challenges that happens when you're in community in groups like that, is that and I talked about it in my talk to you sometimes when, like grades, for example with school, is a challenge, so if someone you know we still have, you're going back to school, you're probably a high achiever. So you know you want to do well, you want to see how you're doing in relation to your peers. You're of a certain age where you were raised with that kind of you know mentality of competition and grades and the whole thing and that can be motivating. But you know, when you come into community with folks who then start comparing grades, you lose your own internal metric, sometimes about what you felt was good, right, and I had a client tell me once, when I was saying describing this to her, that you know you can be feeling great like you felt you made an improvement over your last assignment, or you felt really good about the outcome for you because of the work you put in, and then someone says, oh, I got this great. And all of a sudden, immediately your brain switches and you think, oh, like maybe I didn't do good and I did this.
Speaker 2:And all of these things happen and sometimes those containers, especially at certain points of the year, like close to a term and close to exams, close to final projects the anxiety within the group can ramp up, and so it's important again for everyone in those communities to check in with their inputs. If it's not feeling good, then you need to put boundaries on that interaction and you need to go in, share your bit and then leave once it starts feeling not good. Right, because that's. Or call it out and have a conversation and decide on ground rules for the community is another way to handle that. But yeah, it's, it can be challenging and I've seen I've had to coach folks around that in my own practice when they realize that it's not remind them they're doing okay. It's the energies of everyone else who's freaking out that they're picking up on, because that can happen too, right.
Speaker 1:So valid. And what's coming up for me is I did my executive coaching at rural roads as part of my masters and I was in a I called it a triad, but there were four of us in our group, so within it every time you're learning about, like the grow model and all these different coaching ways and then practicing with with each other and mainly, mainly speaking, authentically. We did do a little bit of role play as well and we took on characters and scenarios. But what was interesting is coming towards the end, when we were leading up to our final audited session and we had a last coaching session just with our triad and we spoke about potential great grades that we were wanting to get and I just I put my hand up and I was like I am here to learn, I you know if I get an A or a B, like honestly, for me I don't, it doesn't phase me so long as I'm learning Whereas all three ladies in my triad said that they want, they wanted the A plus full stop, right.
Speaker 1:But in that session we were meant to be coaching each other and actually we just use that session as an admin call to prepare for our audited session. And I jumped off it and I thought I feel shortchanged here because I didn't get the opportunity to coach or be coached and I'm here to learn. So I jumped off it and I ended up sending them an email and said, look, I really missed. I feel like we missed out in this session because, yes, we were prepared for the next one. We know what roles we're taking, we know what order we're doing and all of this, but we haven't had that practice piece that we were meant to have had and actually all of them, when you're right and we jumped on and the energy from that admin call have been kind of weird and we jumped on the next coaching call together and it was the best one we've done. It was a fantastic opportunity to practice, to learn, to grow and to really be prepared for the next audited call with our professor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that you raise a point, and that's actually one of the reasons why I came to coaching was because, as an instructor, I went back. That was my first career. Reinvention because I had been working in an HR software company helping them with learning and development, but the tool was starting to be used to fire people, determine how to fire people, and that started to not feel good for me. So I decided to go back to school and become an instructor, which was what I would always want it to do, and so. But as I moved through that career and you know work with hundreds and hundreds of students and watched them, you know I never enjoyed grading, and not because it takes a long time, which it does, and there's lots of.
Speaker 2:You know pros and cons to grading, but I understand the reasoning for grades and I understand it as a metric, but I saw what it was.
Speaker 2:I saw the way in which it affected people depending on how they measured themselves, and you know, at the end of the day, rarely are your grades. I mean you obviously to do well for your own self and to you know, as a tool to see how you're doing is reasonable. But there is actually a grade norming spread of anywhere between five to 10 up to 15% is still considered normal. So it's, it's something that shouldn't be over indexed on, and yet that's, it's like you know, weight on a scale, oh, it's a number we've got to grab on to it, Right? And there are so many other measurements of health and there's so many other measurements of academic success other than simply the end product, right? So, yeah, it's, and it is something that I find that mid career folks do struggle, many of them, not all of them, but many of them do struggle with, even if they're growth minded in other areas, Right? So growth mindedness can manifest in in different places, and so can fixed mindedness that, you know, can seem to coexist, in my experience.
Speaker 1:And I'm just wondering, just thinking about the idea of going back to education, Like for me. I don't know any of any other friends of mine back home who've optionally stepped out of the workplace and gone back to education mid career and two years later I almost feel like a different person. I have a completely new direction. I feel excited about the career path that I'm now on. Being like you, I'm able to coach clients. I'm also very business minded and looking at ways to scale my business, and I just wonder if you've got any kind of examples of people who really change their life through this process of reconnecting with themselves, going back to education and reinventing what the next part of their life is going to look like.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean other than my own self, because I did that. You know I was able to. I went back thinking that I would augment coaching and then for a while and then eventually just realized that I needed to pivot entirely because I had what I had learned and I just needed a bigger space and a different way of doing things. A lot of the clients I work with do work simultaneously, but inevitably it seems that in the course of their program they either get a new job in a new area or they get a big promotion or something like they have a kid occasionally happens, but it seems like when they reflect back, the experience is life changing, regardless of whether their career themselves have changed. I think that being going back to school and choosing to deepen your understanding of a field if it's your same field or expanding your awareness in another field, it can't help but be life changing if you're all in, even if that means you're still working a job, but if you're all in and you're open to learning, you know, even though grades matter to a lot of folks and they'll still say that when we drill down it's I just like I really wanted to confirm what I knew or to expand my understanding of this area or to grow in this area, or like it's never really about. I just I need the paper sometimes but when you drill down it's never really that. And I think that as they come out, you know they realize they can do more and their innovation and their willingness to expand increases and you know that can create a really interesting period of time, because I think we don't talk enough in our society about sort of the liminal spaces or the transition points as we all move through change.
Speaker 2:You know, even the decision to go back to school is one thing, but then do it. There's a transitioning that needs to happen. There's a releasing of expectations, a releasing of your old life, like things. Things have to let go in order for things to open up. And then, likewise, as you finish a program and especially if you've gone through a significant personal, like you know, internal change, who you are two years on is not the person who went in and likely you're looking at your life and thinking I don't know if I like, I don't know if I want to walk into this life in the same way, and so there's a transition to navigate there as well.
Speaker 2:What is, who am I, now that I'm on the other side, what is it that I want out of my life? How do I want to experience my work? How do I want to serve you know, what would? What am I willing to do and not do anymore? And I joke sometimes with my students sort of joke like one of my roles in helping them with their, because I work with some academic students at a point in their project or their career, their program, where they're working on a project and I would love to have them reach it, the end of their project, and feel excited or, like you know, tired, sure, like kind of gone through some work, sure, but not depleted, not on the floor, not having to recover from their school experience. And I talked about this in my TEDx. But that idea of you can do these things and not have to recover from your school experience If you're doing them mindfully and really trying to be present, in a way that you know isn't just I'm going to power through, which is great, that's an option but it seems to, on the other side, require some rest, which we often don't give ourselves.
Speaker 1:And especially if people are working whilst they're studying. And I feel incredibly blessed that I have been able to take this time out of the workplace before I started coaching, because I remember taking I took a science of happiness qualification whilst I was working and it was like the the capacity for things to stick in my mind. It was really hard. It was hard because you're working on somebody else's agenda all day and then you do this bit for yourself and then you're a mum juggling that piece as well, like to have anything new. Sticking is a challenge. So I would just encourage anyone, if they get the chance to to even, you know, reduce hours a little bit, to be able to have that dedicated time for education. It's just so valuable and for me I really felt like I found my voice through educating myself, and I think that voice may be dulled down with motherhood and that kind of confidence that I had pre-motherhood does kind of vanish a little bit. So I really feel like it's enabled me to to really claim that confidence again.
Speaker 2:Well, that's awesome to hear. I think you raise an interesting, an important point to around. I think the experience can be different as a woman returning to school versus as a gentleman returning to school, because, I think, you know, my friend likes to. She offered me this question a long time ago, but she said you know, if you're saying yes to this, what are you saying no to? And, on the face of it, that question feels like it can raise some anxiety, I think, because we don't want to say no to anything but the but the fact is that we have a certain capacity, and that's not to say you can't grow your capacity, but if you're, if you're a mom, if you're working, if you're, you know you have a, you're participating in various things, and then you add school that can tip you over, and when you are then dysregulated, because you are stressed out all the time, you can't learn and, as effectively, because, like you say, things just don't stick Right, you're not getting sleep, you're working out off hours, all these things are happening. And so, really, one of the things that you know, if I could, you know, get people into a room prior to them going to school, I would actually, you know, that would be one of the things we would do right Is sit down and say what is your two year program size, whatever plan to you know, decide what's most important and focus on that. Make time for that, including school, because presumably you're investing and you want to do that for some reason. You and then, what can be no to? What can I delegate off? What can I say no to? And make peace with that.
Speaker 2:That saying no doesn't mean you are not a you know failing in some way, because I think a lot of us high achieving women also have a sense of superwoman syndrome where we think we need to do it all and be it all and look amazing doing it, and that is just not realistic. It isn't fair to ourselves and really, in the end, the people who we are trying so hard not to inconvenience. They don't get our best version right. We don't show up with the patience, necessarily, or the love or the you know attention that we Want to, which then, of course, compounds the guilt and, like the whole, is this it's a vicious cycle.
Speaker 2:So I think that, you know, school is a big lift, especially for folks who haven't been back to post-secondary in a long time, because you know there's a lot to remember and one thing I think people forget is that you're going. We get so excited about the learning. We're gonna go learn how to you know about change management or about executive coaching or about communication. We're gonna learn all these things to be great. That's awesome and you will.
Speaker 2:And the mode by which you show your learning is often by writing essays or projects or you know some sort of written communication, and you have to do research and you have to do citing, and that's the part that people Struggle the most with. It's not the learning so much because you're excited to learn. Most of the things you're wanting to learn. It's Applying that in the modes that are required at post-secondary and we and I'm guilty, I've done this too we make space for the class work but we don't make space for the assignment work, and I think you know that's something that people going back really need to plan for Honestly and and not in the optimistic sense of it'll be fine.
Speaker 1:It add 25% to your estimate at least right and I've come from a communications career and the writing is a very different style to what I'm used to writing in press releases, internal communications. Ap a 7 is. It takes a while to get your head around.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know you don't have to memorize it right. As long as you have a guide and you know you remember to look it up, right, it's okay. But you're right though I think you may. As a point, I've had a lot of students come through my like with me or in the class that I teach at railroads. Where they've, they've, they come from backgrounds where they they either do no writing like they barely writes. They write maybe emails, or they write quite a bit, but that I don't really see a big advantage in either group, because often the writing you're doing in the workplace is Not the style of writing that you're being asked to do. So you're still.
Speaker 2:You might have a bit of an advantage in that you're able to, you know you're more comfortable in a longer form or using certain words and styles and expressions, but you still have to learn the conventions of academic writing. And the people who are writing and the people who don't write at all sort of don't come with that baggage, right. They don't. They're not trying to force what they know into a container already, but they also have a lift because now they're like I have never done this before, or I for so long ago, I don't even remember, I don't even know where to start, right. So I Do think we underestimate a little, you know, which is totally human. We, our brains, do that for on purpose, because if they didn't, we'd never do anything.
Speaker 1:Like have, like have children. If we had any idea how much work it was.
Speaker 2:No, exactly. And even if people tell you you don't listen, your brain goes oh well, be like that for me, I'll be fine. But you know, and that's fine. And if you are, if anyone listening is going back to school and saying, ah, it'll be fine for me, awesome and and Plan as though it won't. So you have a plan B, just in case. Right, give yourself that gift.
Speaker 1:And I love what you're saying about Deciding. If you're gonna say yes to that, then you need to say no to something else, and I'm just putting it into Perspective of the people in our lives. Whilst we know that for our health and happiness, we really need to continue to nurture our inner circles, it's maybe just letting the people in our supporter circles know you are important to me. I'm gonna be really focused on on school right now, so if you need something from me, by all means get in touch with me. But if I'm not proactive, if I'm not liking or commenting on social media which I often get feel guilty over I go on there and I see all these things that I haven't engaged with, which makes me just not want to go on there at all. Just letting people know that there's a reason that you're probably not going to be as proactively engaging.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that's important, I think identifying who your supports are and and also to be prepared that not everyone's gonna get what you're doing and why you're doing it, and not everyone is going to be necessarily okay with your degree of availability, and that's okay, really it's okay. They're allowed to have that opinion and you're also allowed to have your Availability as your availability is, and it doesn't mean either of you are wrong. It just is the season that you're in and they want something more and that's great and maybe they'll be there later when you're more available. But it is.
Speaker 2:It is a transition and you know, I found like for me and I see it with my clients too but for me the biggest challenge wasn't the coursework, it was the time you have to spend doing assignments, you know, and you you have to make time for that. Really, you know, and last-minuteing is an option, but it's a very stressful option and it actually, I think, is more disruptive because if you last-minute it and it's not usually done intentionally it just happens that way, but you spend a whole weekend ignoring your family and friends and saying no to engagements, or, when you're at the engagement, that you can't get out of or you're not actually present because you're so worried about the paper you need to write, like you. So it's important that you, as much as you can, front-load your schedule in a way that creates the capacity and the structures that allow you to succeed and also allow you to live your life, because school is two years, or however long, and often you can extend it if you need to. It doesn't mean anything about you or your ability, or whether you can hack it or whether you know. There's all sorts of stories our brain offers up. If you can't do the 18-month program, then you must be a failure. If you need to switch to a 30-month program, nope, it's just what works best for you.
Speaker 2:And so part of the biggest growth of being back in school, I think, is learning about yourself, right. Learning about how you learn, how you work, how you manage time, what your relationships are like, how you you know. Have you learned to ask for help? That's a big one for a lot of students, and women especially, right, because they might feel guilty. Well, I went back to school, so you know this is on me. I chose to do this. I can't ask for help Like, yeah, we got no time for that. That's not okay, like that silliness, especially because if you were in another person's position and they asked you for help, you would be there with the casserole or the babysitting or the whatever you needed to do, and so give them the opportunity to support you, right.
Speaker 1:Beautiful because the science says that we need to feel needed. People want to feel needed and if they offer help, then that means that saying yes isn't an imposition, because they literally want to help.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, and likewise asking too because I think that you know another side effect for Bro and Conn of being a high achieving woman who looks like she's got it nailed down is that people might not think to see if you need help, right, because you look like you got it nailed down when in fact things are coming out, part at the seams and so, and especially if you are a high achieving woman who looks like she's got it all nailed down, when you ask someone for help, that can be really powerful for that person because they feel like, wow, that is, I can help that person. For the reasons that you were saying about feeling needed and feeling you know important, and this goes for even your kids Like, have your kids help you do your assignments by sitting down at the table together to do homework right. Or you know have them, you know get them on board with your schedule right, say I've got to do and show them by example what it takes sometimes right, especially if you have teenagers.
Speaker 1:Be structured. What's coming up for me is my mum went back to university as a mid-career professional. So when I was doing in the UK it's your GCSEs when you're 16, my sister was doing her A-levels and my mum was coming to the end of her undergraduate degree which is beautiful, and I know she had a really healthy boundary that she didn't mind working late in the evenings so long as her weekends were clear.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and that absolutely works for some folks. And I think you have to set your boundaries and also manage your expectations based on the season of life that you're in. Right, like you know from your story, you and your sister were teenagers, right? You were pretty self-sufficient, I mean, you could feed yourselves and all of that kind of stuff. And so you know she maybe, and I don't know, but, like you know, if her weekends are free, then she can take you guys out or you can go do something, you can spend time, and in the week everyone's got their little things to do, so you know it's manageable.
Speaker 2:I think that really the important thing about doing any of the support system work or the boundary work or the connections or any of that, is to check in with what you yourself need and what works best for you. Because I think, especially, we are conditioned to look outside of ourselves for how to do things, and there's a place for, if you honestly have no idea where to start, you know, do a little bit of research, get some tools and give them a whirl, but checking in to say, is this working for me? Right? Because some folks I always ask you know, are you task-driven or are you time-driven? Because if you're time-driven, then you know there might the advice to you know, start when you get your assignment might not work for you. It doesn't work for me. I am more time-driven than task-driven, so I can start and if I start too soon I forget what I did and then it's not as good a product and then I'm actually better about five days out, right, like that's just my rhythm. There's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 2:But sometimes we feel like if we're not, it's the tool that's like, it's us, not the tool that's the problem, or it's us but not the process. And in fact it's the process. It's not working for you and that's okay. So you know setting the boundaries, deciding what groups and how you want to communicate and connect. You know all of these things have to work for you and it's important you're honest with what works for you in the season that you're in and to set your expectations accordingly, because the world needs you after you come out in a good condition. The world your own personal world needs you as a healthy human, and you know school is meant to be about growth and learning. It shouldn't be something that drains you in the process. Challenge you, yes. Drain you, no, right.
Speaker 1:I just feel like you have so beautifully rubbed that piece, so I'm going to invite you, candice, to share. How can people find you?
Speaker 2:Oh well, well, I have an internet address at improveyourselfca and you can find me there, but you can also connect with me online. I am on LinkedIn and I am also on Facebook, and so I would love for people to visit me over there. Beautiful.
Speaker 1:I'm going to put a link to your TEDx tour. Oh, yes, yeah, and a couple of the different groups that we mentioned. Is there an offer that you have available right now? Yeah, so I am depending on when this releases.
Speaker 2:I am offering a free training on how to design your dream career, which is going to be. I'm holding that live on December 6th, and I also have an offer right now about reigniting your career. But if you pop over to my website, you'll see all my offers, especially if you're a mid-career student.
Speaker 1:I also have things for you, too Beautiful, and I'm really appreciating the last message that you shared about checking out your online courses and what you shared about checking in with people. Are they task or are they time focused? That's going to sit a mellow with me over the course of this day. It's been so beautiful to connect in with you. I thank you so much for all of your wisdom and your beautiful sharings.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. It has been a wonderful conversation and I'm sure we could talk for hours yet, but this has been wonderful. We can do this again, Candice Wonderful.
