Rediscovering Connection with Shelley Doyle
Welcome to Rediscovering Connection, a Podcast where you'll hear from innovative leaders, researchers, community builders, and facilitators, on the frontier of connection.
Through soulful conversations, we explore new ways to connect, on-and-offline, to support our social and digital wellbeing.
I hope this podcast inspires you to rediscover connection in your own life!
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Rediscovering Connection with Shelley Doyle
#22 - Monika Jiang - Sharing our Loneliness and Creating Spaces for Authentic Connection
Welcome to Rediscovering Connection!
Have you ever found yourself in a room full of people and yet felt utterly alone? In this episode, I speak to Monika Jiang, a writer, facilitator, and community builder, who joins me in a heart-to-heart on the silent epidemic of modern loneliness and our hunger for authentic connection.
We strip away the facade of social media's promised connectivity, and the importance of creating spaces, on-and-offline, to share stories about our human experience.
Join us for a soulful exploration as we journey towards understanding loneliness and embracing the growth that comes with genuine connection - with ourselves and others.
Get in touch with Monika:
Instagram: @monika.jiang
https://www.linkedin.com/in/monika-jiang/
https://www.monikajiang.org/
https://www.monikajiang.org/sharing-our-loneliness
Through her project 'Sharing Our Loneliness' Monika explores modern loneliness as a personal, collective, and political challenge, aiming to raise awareness and cultivate third places for dialogue, connection, and community.
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I hope our conversation inspires you to rediscover connection in your personal or professional life.
Subscribe now and let the magic unfold.
Love & sparkles,
✨Shelley
About Your Host
Hi, I'm Shelley Doyle, a Social Wealth Strategist and Connection Coach. I empower remote and nomadic founders and leaders who crave deeper connections to activate their social wealth, so they can feel trusted, supported, and truly connected—both online and offline—no matter where they are.
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I combine cutting-edge research on social wealth, social wellbeing and social capital with two decades in corporate communications to deliver mind-shifting talks, workshops, and programs around the world.
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Hello and welcome to Rediscovering Connection. Today's guest is Monica Jang. Monica was introduced to me by a mutual friend of ours, claire Holt, at my former company, who really introduced us to the House of Beautiful Business. So we attended one year of the House of Beautiful Business and this is kind of where Monica's journey where I understand Monica's journey began. I'm sure it goes way back before that and then since then Monica has really been delving into the topic of loneliness and those of you who have followed my journey so far will know that loneliness has played a part in my journey, which probably comes to as a bit of a surprise to many of my friends, family connections, who know me, who know me as a very social human being, who've always kind of had big, big groups of friends around the world.
Speaker 1:I do have a habit of moving, of creating and kind of leaving pockets of friends which I'm still getting under the skin of.
Speaker 1:I did do a talk at Royal Roads University last year which really dissected this a bit more and and help help people to understand my journey of loneliness moving to a new country during lockdown. I'm really feeling that, even though I have many, many friends and family in my life at that time it didn't feel like any of them were in my life, as though I was kind of a passive spectator in their lives. If I chose to go on social media, it didn't help me to feel connected. And that's really where I'm starting to get to in my journey with my personal inner work and also helping clients and organizations to really look after their social and digital health through education, tools and strategies to help us feel more authentically connected, whether that is in person or whether that is connecting with a team member from afar. So welcome, welcome, monica. I'm so, so glad to have you here. I have attended one of your digital events, which was really nourishing, so welcome.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, shelley. I really appreciate it and it's a joy to be here with you. When you just were sharing about this part of your life where you had this and I think we all have an intimate relationship in a way with loneliness, I really resonated because I have also felt lonely despite of having you know, despite being a social person, of having wonderful people in my life. So I think modern loneliness also comes often in a paradox, almost like it hides very well and it shows up in very different ways and nuances. Often that doesn't necessarily go along with this, say, cliche idea or stereotypical idea of this one person who is like, physically alone, detached, isolated, has no friends or whatever, although of course that also exists, but it's more like this abundance of connections. You mentioned social media, all of that.
Speaker 2:Since you mentioned social media, all of that, and to bridge over to my time at the house, I was responsible there for the community and for the curation of the content. So I was lucky to be the person who, yeah, over the years I was there for five years really building the community, from when it was just a you know, just a conference. It was just beginning. You know, just a conference. It was just beginning to become something and um, so I was lucky to be connected with a lot of our members and, you know, spend time with them, get to know many of them, um, now it's a global network of like 30,000 or more members all around the world and that, in a way, showed me that many of them had the sense of, oh, here I don't feel, or I recognize, that I'm not alone, right, that I don't feel so alone in what I'm trying to pursue, whether that is in business, trying to do something else, trying to do something unconventional, right, something out of the business norm, or on a very personal level.
Speaker 2:So I just got really curious to see, like, okay, there seems to be a much deeper reason why people are so attracted to the house, connection, community, this sense of intimate, intimate connections, but then also being part of something greater, like it's almost like this existential loneliness, um, and that just, yeah, led me into um, following this curiosity, uh, as my chapter at the house was ending, because I've sensed like there's, there's something else, there's something new for me to explore, um, and then I dove into loneliness, um, both sort of you know, through my own experience, partly and probably subconsciously, to be honest, at that time, uh, through the house and through the community work, wanting to understand what is beneath that desire, and then also seeing our societies drifting apart more and more, and especially in Europe where I'm based, in the last few years there's been such a rise in right-wing and far-right populism and anti-democratic movements, and there seems to be a resonance right, and there seems to be a lot of people who feel neglected and abandoned and not part, and longing for something too, which then gets responded by in an ugly way, of course, in a non-human way in many ways, I think, by populist movements who are very good at creating belonging in that sense.
Speaker 1:So yeah, Someone that's just come onto my radar is a guy named Robert Putnam. I don't know if you've heard of him. So he wrote the book called Bowling Alone a decade ago and his whole thing was about join, join clubs, join communities, and how people are are less and less joiners. So we're not joining clubs, we're not. So what people are feeling alone, but it's like the impetus is is on us, like it's for us to take the initiative and to understand and to realize that our loneliness is is in our control a lot of the time. And if only we look out to see what opportunities and initiatives are out there that speak to us.
Speaker 1:And I think, I think for a lot of us, work just takes over our lives, right, and we're like like, like I've struggled to find the balance between sharing personal and professional, sharing my personal or my professional life on social media, and that that gives me a lot of social media anxiety, particularly in my personal platforms. Like I feel quite comfortable sharing professionally on LinkedIn, but I just I struggle to to know what to share and to feel comfortable and safe sharing on my personal channels about my personal life. So, and I just think in that respect, my professional life just always does take priority a lot of the time in in terms of what I'm willing to share with my wider social connections, which is really why I've chosen to bring my social connections and relationships in. So I'm really focused on quality over quantity. Yeah, I think absolutely.
Speaker 2:I think, um, you know, you said it, I think you, you said you know safety like feeling safe, um, and I would presume that you know, when at least it's the case for me as well when I share something about my work and through my, with my professional network, that feels much more, it feels close but distant, you know, uh, feels much more safe because I there, I'm monica, the person who's exploring loneliness and community. You know, I'm not, that's not the whole of me, but if I would want to share something truly intimate and personal, there's also this, this question of like why and with whom, and you know, I make myself much more vulnerable, I, I make myself much more open to be perhaps judged by the people that I actually care about, that I actually love, right. So I think that that is what I hear in what you were just sharing.
Speaker 1:And I wonder.
Speaker 1:I know that you've recently started on Substack and I'm like just preparing to launch one myself and that just the idea of that is feeling somewhat vulnerable, because I know that when I do launch eventually, then it will be the more personal and authentic version of me that is going to be shared. Like I have notebooks brimming with stuff that I don't share anywhere at all because I wouldn't feel comfortable sharing on LinkedIn, I wouldn't feel comfortable sharing it on Facebook and it's like where, where? What is this for? Am I saving it for a book, or do I just need to release when it is actually most alive for me? So how is that? How has that journey felt for you?
Speaker 2:on Substack how has that? How has that journey felt for you? On Substack, yeah, I think. Well, I guess you know there's so much to be said about, you know, social media or media, digital media in general, how that is both helpful but then also often detrimental to our desire to want to connect and to our well-being overall. Um, like this desire to like, share or not, and for whom, but um, for me, I mean, it was just like the first things.
Speaker 2:I, when I, um, when I left the house, I took a few months for nothing. I really plunged into the unknown. At that time I really had no idea. I had an inkling of maybe there is something with this loneliness topic, but no real idea of where that could go. And that was a really important time for me. Just to, you know, enjoy this transition and honor the time that I had with the house and then also let that sink before I'm jumping into the next thing.
Speaker 2:Right, so the launch of the step stack, I remember, was sort of a very, for me, a tender thing, but it always also was, it felt doable. At that time, you know, I was like, okay, it's, it's, it's a newsletter, like I'm writing, and this is for me, this is research, and writing for me, is thinking. So I'm basically just motivating myself to, you know, think more and deeper about this topic, and if there are a few people who want to, you know, read it along with me and who become curious as well, particularly about something that is so stigmatized and so often misunderstood loneliness then that's wonderful. And I think you know what I hear in your sharing of wanting to maybe share something more personal is that it's that's one big learning that I that I have so far and it's not been a long time that it is so needed and so helpful for all of us actually to share more of these particularly intimate personal things that we usually maybe keep to ourselves, whether they are more, you know, difficult feelings or difficult experiences, or they're very positive ones, right and everywhere on that spectrum.
Speaker 2:But it is just so, so needed that we are coming into connection through these shared experiences, that someone reads something of your you know um substack and says like, oh, I, I thought it was just me, you know. Or, oh, that there's something that I can take just as an inspiration for today, or, or yeah, or just like these are beautiful words, like it's so poetic, you know, it's like a piece of art, like there. There's so many ways we can resonate with each other. Um, that doesn't necessarily have to fulfill a specific measurable outcome or purpose.
Speaker 1:You know, I think yeah, and you have been um hosting some physical events recently in Berlin am. I right yes so some of them were open to all, and was it? Did you do one just for guys? We're just for men.
Speaker 2:Yes that was the most recent ones. I did a first one in like a, just the first one in, in Berlin, uh, in December last year. That was the, the very first one. Then I did one in Lisbon in March and then last week one just for men, together with a with a friend of mine, and now I'm gonna do one in Madrid as well in two weeks. Yes, and yeah, that one that the one for men was sort of, and yeah, that one the one for men was sort of more looking at sort of the disconnection of men from themselves and you know each other and this idea of masculinity and how that is connected to this disconnection or this sense of loneliness.
Speaker 1:And how facilitated were these events. Mightily or fully facilitated were these events kind of lightly or fully facilitated?
Speaker 2:actually pretty like half half, I would say um, it was definitely carried by the group. So we had 32 men join um and I did this together with my um, with my friend Jindi man, who's doing a lot of men's work and he's also a leadership coach, um, and yeah, so together we sort of opened um. It was so interesting because we opened this circle with just a few, you know, a few words, also with a grounding exercise, like some movement. You know, some of the men were looking at me like for real, I have to now go tapping and like breathing, and I'm, but most of them, you know, they played along. They were, oh, this is actually fun, great um.
Speaker 2:And then we opened the circle and I basically just prompted them to say okay, what are some you know, associations that you have with the, with masculinity? If I say masculinity, what's popping up? And I thought, you know, we would hear maybe one or two keywords, just like here, there, and then launch into a conversation between Jindy and I. And then what happened was that there was so much energy already and so much that wanted to be shared from the men, the participants about, you know, their personal relationship to um. This idea of masculinity is something that is, like, you know, a concept um, that they relate or not relate to so much. So there was a lot that wanted to be shared and talked about, so we just let, we just went with that um, holding it but going with it and having some, uh, some, some conversations, can some pointers that we wanted to touch on, just to understand, you know, what are we um, what are we talking about here, and how is that also connected to some research?
Speaker 2:Um, and then that was sort of the first part, really an open conversation, discussion, discussion, um.
Speaker 2:And then the second part were these men's circles. So those were facilitated, but also lightly, in a way that it was really about the men sharing their stories, and the way that these men came into the space and left was, you know, day and night, almost, or sun, and it was really, really beautiful for me, particularly to witness that um, because the the second part with the men's circles I was not part of. So it was really beautiful for me to, as a woman, you know, as a, as a woman, as a daughter, as a, as a friend, as a partner, right, all of these dimensions like as as me to to witness that and and how much such a such a space is is needed actually, and for men, and for men exclusively, um, I think yeah, yeah, wow, what a privilege to have been like you, facilitated but as a witness to to that, to that need and feeling of that, I I'm curious if any like connections were made by some of the attendees there and if there's any.
Speaker 1:Yeah, beautiful, um. I hosted a circle at my university last week which was all about authentic connection in nature and just the gratitude afterwards of people just saying I really needed this space today, thank you, and people really feeling seen and heard in circle. There's just something magical about that process. So I applaud you for creating that space and the bravery of going out there to say I'm learning, but I know that this is needed. And then look at the respect.
Speaker 1:Look at the reception like 32 guys. And how about your your open sessions for men and women? Have they been quite well attended also?
Speaker 2:yeah, so I so far I've always kept it with 30, and now I'm actually interested because, partly because of that experience with a men's gathering, to maybe try smaller groups, because I think the quality and you will probably notice, like the quality of course, of conversation and exchange, it does change if you have right, 15 or 20 instead of because it was a lot. It was just wow, there was just a lot and it almost felt like, you know, it was not enough. I mean, it's it's never enough with these kinds of things, but, um, I think that's that's one of the few things that I will definitely, you know, do differently or explore. But thank you, thank you for acknowledging it, and I think that's one of the few things that I will definitely do differently or explore. But thank you, thank you for acknowledging it. And I think it just speaks really to the need for connection more than anything else amongst each other, and I think there is something particularly precious about men connecting with each other, not through sports, not through, you know, going to the pub and um, hanging out there, not, um, not these kinds of activities.
Speaker 2:I mean, activities are great, but not necessarily those spaces where not to say that they're wrong and they're needed and they're great, but where there's already a social code right on how to be there and in bigger groups and you're like, okay, you know this is going out and like that kind of sit, but but in a, in a more, yeah, focused way where you can show up. And, of course, I think the the one of the advantages um advantages, I guess, yeah, in in those spaces is that people don't know each other. So there is almost this right we said like, okay, we'll not share details that can be attributed to someone um, outside of this space. It's like just here, please honor that um. And they didn't know each other so often. Often it is easier, paradoxically, to share something more intimate with a stranger in those spaces now and in our circle last week it was majority women.
Speaker 1:There was one guy and sometimes we would go round in circle and sometimes we would kind of popcorn it to allow people to just speak when they felt the impulse to, and he was definitely one of them that spoke last and it was almost like it had to sink in that oh, we're going there, and almost like it took a a while for that, that opening, to even make the words accessible in terms of what he was actually feeling, yeah, yeah, it's, I think, um, and also, I guess, and I could imagine, right in the presence of many other very articulate, I'm assuming all of these things women, uh, you know to to be like, okay, what am I going to say?
Speaker 2:you know, I want to speak my truth, but like, is it that or is it this? So I I again just assuming how he might have felt, um, that I could imagine that might have been the case as well. And there is, um, just on this, uh, um, on this topic, not this observation, there's research done primarily by a woman called Niobe Wei, and she's been studying boys and young men in particular, over decades now and across the world. She's based in the US, but like across the world, and she's based in the us, but like across the world. And what she found was that boys around the age of seven or eight ish, I think, um, you know, before that or during that age, they have very close relationships and friendships, like with other boys in particular, but then something shifts during their very early adolescence, where they get this idea that, um, you know it's, it's not manly enough to be intimate with another boy in particular, right, like, maybe touching each other now in this way, like hugging each other, holding that's weird. Like girls maybe do that. You know we shouldn't be doing that.
Speaker 2:And like, like all of these cliches about like boys don't cry, men don't talk about their feelings, like all of that is very much interwoven in at least the you know, most Western industrialized nations and cultures, right, this idea that yes, there is a certain way how a boy is growing up to be a man, right To be self-sufficient, to be strong, to like be composed.
Speaker 2:You know how dare you like cry and like make a drama scene, like, no, not a girl, you're not a woman another cliche, um, but there's something that happens.
Speaker 2:It gets so suppressed and robs them almost right of of this very natural human instinct of wanting to be emotionally intimate, wanting to connect right, wanting to hug each other, wanting to be close. So I think when you, when you shared about this um participant of yours in your circle and that you felt like maybe there was a little bit of hesitation or it had to sink in, um, there's, there's many reasons for that, and just mentioned this to say like that's there's so much depth in you know the reasons and the whys of how men have been socialized, or boys, men, um, and how that plays out in our society right now that is going through so much uh, yeah, waking up for like, a sense of like transformation, right and and predominantly also through, uh, feminist movement and so forth. Not that they were yet there yet, but, um, I have a lot of new found compassion, I would say personally, for boys and men in in this regard in particular.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. I have a five-year-old boy, so it's actually really valuable to know to for me to be able to support him in the years to come yeah, I, I recommend you if you have not seen it.
Speaker 2:It's the? A movie called close and it's a belgian movie and it's also based on the research that I mentioned. Um, and it's a. It's a yeah, it's a very heavy movie, um, but uh, it's a beautiful one that depicts this inner confusion, almost at such a young age like I, really I get goosebumps because it's so. It's a beautiful one that depicts this inner confusion, almost at such a young age like I. Really I get goosebumps because it's so. It's. Seeing that and reading the research is one thing, but like seeing it in a movie, like through personal stories, and the director also who spoke about this, is like very, um, it's concerning in a way. Right, it's like wow, and now this movie is coming out, you know, after so many years. So, anyway, I recommend it to you because I think it's concerning in a way. Right, it's like wow, and now this movie is coming out, you know, after so many years. So, anyway, I recommend it to you because I think it's maybe inspiring in a way, even though it's a heavy one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a beautiful one, thank you, and much of my work leans on the research of Dr Robin Dunbar in terms of understanding the numbers of people that actually really impact our health and happiness. And, looking at that, the numbers are small and I do think, as a parent, this is going to really help me to be a good mum in terms of encouraging my children to have a small number of close friends and stop trying to be popular to everybody, because that does not necessarily lead to lead to happiness. Um, I wonder if kind of numbers has come up for you in any of the work that you've done? Um, in terms of seeing how how people's social needs are and if they're being satisfied in their in their physical life or in their digital life.
Speaker 2:Perhaps yeah, it's such an important aspect, and I think that's where social media comes in again. Right, it's this, this sense that you know, I have hundreds, maybe thousands of followers, but I have no one to call when I'm feeling sad, right, or if I'm feeling, um, I want to share something really important, and so that's sort of the modern notion of this weird modern loneliness, right, and that that has nothing to do necessarily with um, with lack of connections, because we are so hyper connected in a way, but the quality of it and, as you say, sort of the, the number, um, I think does, does absolutely play a role, and the trends, like at least the, the numbers that are coming out of the us and that I know of, because in europe there's also similar statistics but different ones the numbers are really declining in terms of friendships, and close friendships in particular, which is very concerning, um. But then, on the other hand, you have sort of the social media phenomenon, right, it's like everybody's your friend now I'm following an influencer and like they share their morning routine and like that this is where I go to for lunch and you're like, oh, that's my friend. You know, it's not that I would say it like this. But it feels like that and um, of course, when they do research and like compare right, how how people feel actually after social media interactions and the, the results are very mixed. Because and maybe you resonate with this, I do for sure is that sometimes I go on social media and I scroll and I'm like, yeah, I actually I love to see what my friend there and there or that person is doing, you know, right now on the other side of the world.
Speaker 2:That's cool, I feel connected in a way, right, or I have this new app that I'm testing, actually, where you check in, uh, on how you feel today. When you do that three times or so a day, it's like it's a small check-in, it's like literally one, one minute on the app, but not even just like this is how I feel today and you can check how your friends feel, which is interesting and nice because, um, it's actually in a canadian, it's a canadian um app or a company startup, uh, it's called up being and they really look at the social aspect of well-being anyway. So that's nice. You know, I'm like, oh, that's, that's cool. But then often, of course, I go on social media and I scroll, I'm like what have. What have I been actually looking at? Like I don't even remember, I'm just in this doom scroll and I don't feel connected, I feel disconnected, I feel jealous, I you know, because I'm seeing this, I'm seeing that and I feel like I'm left out and like why didn't they ask me to come? You know all of these things. So back to your question of you know, quality versus quantity. Um, I think absolutely.
Speaker 2:In terms of close relationships or close friendships, it is so, so important for us to at least have one person right that we can rely on, that, we can trust to, that, we can speak to, that we can call um and shift our perception a little bit of what it means to be in relationship, what it means to have true friendships.
Speaker 2:I'm posting, in two weeks, this event here in madrid that is exactly about this like what is actually true friendship in this age of everybody's your friend and no one? And also, which is a little bit of a related question but a slightly different one, what if we centered our lives more around our friends and around friendship rather than, say, the nuclear family? So, yes, I I definitely resonate with this idea of keeping the circle small and tight and then also being conscious of nurturing those relationships, because we all have just a certain amount of energy to give and even though love is expansive, right, like you need energy to communicate, you need energy to connect, you need energy to visit someone if they're not in your same you know place and you need to take time right and and that that takes energy.
Speaker 2:So, um, I personally can only have like a yeah small, small circle of really really close friends that I then tend to.
Speaker 1:I so resonate and with that energy, that we have a finite supply of energy and time. I I think that met. For many people they're spending that time and energy like crafting a post for social media. And I've just had a big test because I've just gone on a huge road trip to Utah to see my brother. It was 1600 kilometers each way with my two children and my partner.
Speaker 1:It was a huge deal, huge deal and you know, I did feel a bit of an impulse to share something on social media but ultimately it was a really big deal and I'm like I only really want my close connections to even know that I'm going, because I don't want the whole world to be checking in and feel like I need to be updating everybody along the way of how it's going and everything. I wanted to be able to really sink into the enormousness of what we were doing and to be able to get there and be in full presence, not feeling like I need to answer to anybody at all. So I let about 12 or 15 people know that we were going on this trip and then some of them did message me kind of on the way, and those that did, I kind of responded to those that didn't you know. I felt like I'd done my due diligence to let them know and that was enough. And then I let let people know once we arrived home safely. Now I I will share something on social media. Um, I will, I'm excited, like got some beautiful photos. But actually some of those photos I've sent to kind of a few like different family groups and I've sent to individuals to go wow, this was like such a nourishing trip. And now I feel called to actually go and print some photos and send some in the post.
Speaker 1:And then I think if I just share this on social media, if they then receive that in the mail, would that feel as personal, would that feel as special? So I'm kind of doing a little bit of a test for myself to see if I can hold off and actually spend the month of May just personally sharing with my wider social connections. So, going back to robin dunbar's numbers, so he says your, your, your brains uh, your, your brain has the capacity for about 150 people in the wider social spheres. So I've done, I've done my work to map my, to map my people, and mapping like, the different clusters of people around it as well, to make it feel a bit more manageable.
Speaker 1:So really, what I'm wanting to do from this is to really take in all the learnings from my trip and that intimate connection that we had, the growth that me and my family had in the car we were literally in the car for about 56 hours together over five days, oh my gosh, um and share it intimately with people and invite people to kind of live experiences, whether it's in zoom or in the metaverse which I'm exploring and offering. You know, sharing, asking people, what do you want to ask me about it? It was a big deal. So this, for me, is my first real test to see, um, how this feels to be sharing in this much more personalized way.
Speaker 2:I love it. So, first of all, congratulations on successfully making that huge trip. I like coming back safely and I, yeah, I find it very inspiring that you, you know, consciously are choosing to experiment a little bit and see, like, how does that feel? And question you know how and with whom do I want to share what? Because you know that this happened right, your partner knows, your children know you will forever have this memory because you have had this experience.
Speaker 2:But what the zeitgeist is sort of telling us these days, like if you don't, if you can't prove that there was, you know, a photo and a live stream and a video and like a second by second documentation of this is what I'm doing right now, by the way, then it did it actually exist, you know? Did it actually happen? So I think to resist that is is a wonderful provocation and uh, and really speaks to you know. Coming back to coming back to the basics of like, let me just be here and like, take this in, because we're doing this right now and this is how it feels, and like, how, you know, wonderful, or like, how challenging also sometimes, or how, whatever it was right, um, but that's so precious, even more so, I think these days to keep that to yourself, um, and not feeling like you. You have no zero obligation to share. You know, with, with like the wider, like social media world at all right so thank you and yeah it was definitely all the feels, it was all of the emotions.
Speaker 1:It was amazingly, stunningly, breathtakingly beautiful and it was anxiety ridden at times. The pace of US cities on the roads is crazy. Yeah, that was heartless wow times, um, but yeah, it was incredible and I have had some feedback from a friend of mine that I don't share enough in terms of my personal life on social media and I'm like I guess my podcast, in a way, is probably a bit more of a personal touch. So, um, but yeah, I don't, I don't I save it. I save it for people that are in my circles and you know, maybe, maybe I don't, I don't I save it. I save it for people that are in my circles and you know, maybe, maybe we don't need to bear all to the public all the time.
Speaker 2:No, no, I mean, there's so much of it already. And I feel that. I really feel that because I also you know I'm now that I've started my projects I'm like matter, like, should I post this like? And then, of course, at least again I'm speaking just for myself I'm getting into this cycle of like how's the post performing what time? Who are these people? And it's just like, oh my gosh, monica, you don't like. No, you know, disconnect from that. But it's so hard because, of course, I am. You know, I'm spending a lot of time online and and on social media and it's so seductive and it's so smart and so manipulative to, you know, tie your self worth through a stupid post. You know stupid likes on social media. It's just like, just post something and then don't look at it, you know, but it doesn't. It just never happens for me. Um, but I, yeah, I, I think that's it's.
Speaker 1:It's a it's not an easy, easy task and I I think the social media algorithms are just kind of annoying because, like, if I go more than two weeks without posting um a video on YouTube, for instance, like it's just the algorithm doesn't work for you and I came off LinkedIn for a little bit and I've gone back on.
Speaker 1:It's like it just doesn't need the consistency for the algorithm to actually be your friend and for them to actually show your post, um, which is why one of the big, big um learnings that I love to share is when you're going on social media like, map the people, even just the you know the 12 to 15 people who are really important to you. And when you're going on social media platforms like, look them up first, the likelihood is, even if they have shared which half of them won't have, but you won't see it anyway. And then I do hear from some people. They're like, oh, didn't you see my post? And I'm like, well, no, I didn't, cause I don't go on social media very much. I try and go on there as little as possible, but I'm getting better at when I do go on being a bit more intentional with who I look up.
Speaker 2:I think that's a great um. You know prompt to say, like map this, as you said, right, map your people, like just don't look at your contact list, right, don't look through your LinkedIn connections, just out of your you know top of your mind who are the people and map them. And I did that as well. Just like in terms of understanding, you know who is there actually and who. So what are the clusters, as you said, right, like family and so forth, and that would tell you a lot already you know about it. And how do you resonate? Then sit with that and say, how do you resonate? You feel like I, I wish there were more people, or is it more? Is it not more? It's different, like have you outgrown some of these friendships?
Speaker 2:Because that's happened, that happens, right, it's like I don't think we, it's like in any relationships, like seems like we're not, you know, on the same path, or like it seems like we have less, we have less to to share. Now, somehow, neither was, I was really invested into this relationship, which is just here, because it's convenient and it's comfortable. You know no one wants to leave um, so to make also the conscious choice of ending um beautifully in a way, or as beautiful as possible, or honest, by the friendship. I think that's. That's really not easy and usually it fades out. Somehow you lose touch.
Speaker 2:I'd like to say to someone in a way, without you know, making it a big drama, but just say, hey, I've noticed like you don't seem to be hanging out in this way anymore, like I just wonder if it's, if you notice that as well, like maybe it's because of this or that, or like this is what I'm interested in. You know to, to, to also honor the friendship and say we ended here, and then you create room or space again for new people, so that it balances it out as well, of how many new people can you, you know, can do, you want to meet, or can you meet um, so that it's not always this sense of yeah coming from a void. Right, I feel like I'm actually happy, I'm actually okay, but I'm still gonna go to 25 networking, you know events or whatever that. But that's also the culture you know that that we live in. It's like, why aren't you social?
Speaker 1:be social, right, like no, I don't want to be social all the time, yeah yeah, that so resonates all of that, and and I just think, yeah, being intentional with how we're spending our time, and one of the checks that I have is do I like the version of me that is alive when I'm in the presence of others? Yeah, beautiful, and, and I don't know what it is and it's sometimes I feel, um, I feel like it's unfair, because I feel myself pulling away from certain individuals and I can't put my finger on why. They've done absolutely nothing wrong, but for some reason, that version of me that I love to be doesn't come out, and actually, sometimes, a version of me that I'm not wanting to be is present. So in that respect, I mean, we're honoring ourselves by by stepping back and acknowledging that, whether it's out loud or not, yes, no, um, absolutely I um.
Speaker 2:It reminds me, right, of this baseline of being if you are not connected with yourself, you're not going me, you know, and there's very many versions of me, um, but like this version of me, do I, you know, do I resonate, or is it one from the past? I actually don't want to be that person anymore. I thought like I left that part, just like that particular part, behind and therefore can I go into connection with certain kinds of people because I intentionally want to, and vice versa, right, like that the other person hopefully also feels the same way, right, and then you have something that you can nourish and that you want to nourish.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, so I'd love to know I I understand and this might be wrong, but I understand that you've kind of gone into this realm of loneliness and facilitating events with curiosity to really see what is wanting to emerge. Um, are you still in that phase or are you? Do you feel like you started to get under the skin of what is wanting and you've kind of got some vision of how that's going to play out in your future?
Speaker 2:I think I'm still in the exploration um phase and I hope it never stops.
Speaker 2:To be very honest, um, I hope I keep this sense of curiosity. I hope I keep this sense of um, yeah, the way that you know we just talked about the the way that my heart feels and my soul feels when I am in in this work of being with others, of holding space, of having people and often strangers in a sense, or, you know, people that I've not spent a lot of time with bare their soul, in a way that is so moving to me and again seems to be so needed without me being again seems to be so needed um, without me being having to say like, okay, now I'm a coach, I'm a therapist, I'm a I don't know what I, I mean, I am trying to create those spaces, but I, I, um, I hope I don't lose that. You know the sense and at the same time, um, I I guess I'm becoming clearer um that I would love to focus my work on, on what I'm doing, but just doing it better. So I think there is something very natural for me of, yeah, bringing people together and like creating this sense of community, um, but different from before, I guess it's more. It feels more like small, direct, intimate, it feels there's some, a space around really cultivating and practicing connection skills um.
Speaker 2:So compassion and empathy, active listening and self-reflection um shifting perspective of me and other people, presence, um, these kinds of skills or capacities really that are needed, I think, more so than ever, and I I want to, yes, step into that part as well. So both, yes, understanding and holding space for how loneliness one wants to be shown, um wants to be shown or made visible um again, because it is still a topic that is, yeah, tiptoed around um often and, on the other hand, trying to say, like, how can we nurture those capacities in order to be more able to reconnect with ourselves and others and and the world right at large?
Speaker 1:yeah, and I love that.
Speaker 1:Just the reconnect with self, that just so resonates because I think, through through work and business of life, we can so easily lose our essence ourselves. And then we find ourselves, when we do get social, like what, what are we talking about? What is our conversation? It's like we really need to go inside to start remembering what lights us up, what we want to be talking about, not just allowing the narrative to just flow from our mouths on topics that we're not even interested in or we don't actually have our own voice on.
Speaker 2:We may be just repeating somebody else's thoughts or words rather than going deep to understand what we think that's such an important point because it speaks to the fact that we've all and it's ironic because I'm speaking now um, that we've all become so used to speaking, you know, to sharing, to posting, to broadcasting, to voicing, and to say like, okay, I'm on this side, I'm on this side.
Speaker 2:I'm not with those people, I'm on this side, I'm not with those people, I'm on this side, yes, I'm with the good ones, right, like I'm with the ones that are right. And I think this capacity to really listen right to the other person, but also to yourself, like really, really, really listen, that is something that needs to be brought back in a way, that needs to be nurtured and that can lead to this sense of self-connection in a deeper way and then connection to the other, because, ultimately, we all want to be listened to. But the fact that we speak more and shout louder and more channels, more and more, and it's like who is even listening to this? Like are you still, you know? And to pause and to say like I actually don't know, I don't have an answer to this, or I actually notice right now I'm not in the conversation, not present, I'm not here, I'm actually thinking about my lunch, you know, or I'm thinking about what else I have to do. I'm going to do this.
Speaker 2:I'm actually not here at all yet so that you know and then to be able to ask better questions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and even asking questions of yourself, like, like when you immediately think, oh, I don't have a, I don't have a thought on this topic. It's like no, don't know should not be in our vocabulary. Don't know simply means you've not given yourself a chance to think about it. So ask yourself the questions and then allow the pause. And that pause might take you a whole hike, or you know that pause. It might not come instantly, but allow the pause, allow yourself to be curious about how you do feel on a certain topic. And maybe that is the standard line, or maybe it's not.
Speaker 2:And be curious doesn't mean you need to tell everybody, but getting a deeper knowing of self, like that's kind of why we're here, I think yes, I think this contemplation, right, this idea of, yeah, let me, hmm, sit with them, right, let me, yeah, go for a walk, as you, as you said, or hike, or um, movement is always movement is always wonderful. I guess it's so helpful, right, especially when we feel like overwhelmed or stuck. Um, just get your body moving and you'll be like, okay, maybe I'm just walking, you know, just taking a walk doesn't have to run, or um, and my, something might emerge right, or this thought might lead you to something else, um, and, and those are the, yeah, those are the really, really precious, uh, in between spaces where something's like oh, what was that? Didn't know that that was here.
Speaker 1:Um, so yeah, was that, didn't know that that was here. Um. So yeah, and what I'm just feeling called to kind of leave leave with from my side is when, when I had kind of gone deep and into curiosity about my feelings of loneliness, when I came out the other side of it, I really did feel that I had been missing myself. I had been lonely because I was missing a version of me that hadn't been alive for a while and she was back or she was returning. I think she's still returning, but I'm really feeling a lot closer in my connection with self. But I'm really feeling a lot closer in my connection with self and I'd love to just put that to you as kind of our closing of this beautiful conversation. Have you had any epiphanies through your journey and being really beautifully open and vocal about your experience? What has something helped you? Have you had an epiphany? That's really been life, been been life-changing for your journey, I think it's.
Speaker 2:It's that I've never articulated it like this, but I think it was that for me as well. Um, this one moment a few years ago, when I just realized that I had been so occupied with work, back to the work topic and this idea and this mission that I was so passionate about, and that I kind of lost the sense of who is Monica without her work, sense of who is monica without her work. What is she trying to prove so hard and try to fill so desperately that still she can't stop working right, because it seems like it's not working actually, uh, that this filling of, of whatever wants to be filled. So I came really to this point where I felt completely lost, um, and and very, very alone. Uh, and luckily I had, you know, friends and also family around who were still there. When I reached back out, you know to say, like you know what I, I realized something I neglected you, I, I neglected you, I neglected me, I neglected all the possibility of what, if, what could have been.
Speaker 2:And I, I remember and I still feel that when I share it now, right, this, there's a part of that that's even grieving in a way, because you're like, I wish I would have made time. I wish I would have listened to you, because you're an important person to me. You are one of my best friends and I, you know I was there, but I was not there. So I think, in realizing that and then slowly shifting things and balancing right and seeing, okay, let me create space actively, you know, get into creative things again, try new things actively. You know, find back. Find back, as you, as you said, and in that um, finding back to the, to the relationships, the people that really matter to you, and then also new ones appeared, right, that's the beauty of life. It's just like, oh, there it is, there's this person right and that person like, wow, now new things are weaving together. So yes, beautiful.
Speaker 1:That actually made me a little bit teary because I yeah, I really resonate and just thinking back to some of the time that's lost when people that are now lost that maybe I didn't spend as much time with that I could have done. So I'm thankful to have discovered this now and to be investing my time a little bit more wisely same, yeah, thank you so much, monica. It's been such a delight to share space with you. Um, I will, of course, share your sub stack, your LinkedIn, but is there anywhere else that you would like to direct people to? To your work, to your events?
Speaker 2:Sounds good to me, those two. Thank you so much, shelley. I really appreciate it.
