#34 - Nathalie Grand & Wayne Greenway - Rediscovering Connection: A Journey to Joy Over Christmas

In this special episode of "Rediscovering Connection," host Shelley Doyle explores the heartfelt initiative "Journey to Joy" which is open to everyone this Christmas, with guests Wayne Greenway and Natalie Grand, connecting from the East Coast of Canada to Switzerland.

This episode delves into the essence of combating loneliness during the holiday season, focusing on a unique 10-day online workshop designed to foster resilience and connection.

Wayne Greenway, founder of Career Aviators and a Career Management Consultant with over 25 years of experience in resilience-building, and Nathalie Grand, a therapist and resilience expert with a background in marketing and positive psychology, share insights on how they came together through the Canadian Positive Psychology Association to address loneliness and promote joy this Christmas.

They discuss the importance of resilience, the distinction between solitude and loneliness, and practical strategies like sleep, emotion labeling, gratitude, and mindfulness for personal growth.

This episode not only highlights their innovative approach to community building over Christmas but also touches on personal stories of career pivots and the power of intentionality in shaping one's identity. Whether you're an 18-year-old feeling disconnected at university or an 80-year-old seeking companionship, this conversation offers valuable lessons on finding joy and connection in life's various stages.

Join us to learn how you can be part of their transformative journey, to navigate the holiday season with more joy and less loneliness.

Register for Journey to Joy: https://wodcop.my.canva.site/journey-to-joy

Guest Bios:

Nathalie Grand: A passionate therapist and resilience expert, specialized in positive and organizational psychology. With nearly 20 years in major consumer goods companies, she transitioned to focus on resilience and well-being through her consultancy firm, inspiring positive mindsets and behaviors. She's currently researching emotion regulation in workplaces.
Website: https://www.nathaliegrand.com/

Wayne Greenway: As the founder of Career Aviators, Wayne has dedicated over 25 years to career management and resilience training across various sectors in Ontario. He co-leads the Psychological Resilience Knowledge Exchange Group and empowers participants through programs l

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I hope our conversation inspires you to rediscover connection in your personal or professional life.

Subscribe now and let the magic unfold.

Love & sparkles,
✨Shelley

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Hi, I’m Shelley Doyle, founder of The Communiverse—a Social Wealth Consultancy. Through our 90-day program, The Social Wealth Roadmap, we empower remote leaders, founders and creators who are craving deeper connection to activate their social wealth, so they can feel deeply connected, trusted, and supported—online, offline and within.
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Transcript

Shelley: 0:00

So let's delve a little bit deeper into what is coming up with your Christmas program, your journey to joy.

Nathalie: 0:07

Let me let me try and give a little overview like who's gonna come I think anyone let's be honest because Marketing we should be targeting a specific person and so on but let's be let's face it. We can all be lonely. We can be 18 year olds be going At first year at university still haven't made some strong connections of friends from school might have moved on and we can still feel lonely and we can be 80 year old and our friends have gone. Maybe we don't have so many family members. We might not be so much mobile to go to events. And maybe an online gathering is what we need. So, generally speaking, whoever feels the need for it is invited to come to our workshop.

Shelley: 0:51

Hello and welcome to Rediscovering Connection. I am Shelley Doyle. I'm here today with two guests, which is a new experience for me. I'm not sure if these guys have done a three way podcast interview before, but let's see how it rolls. So I'm here with Wayne Greenway and Natalie Grand. We are calling in from the West Coast and East Coast of Canada and over in Switzerland today. Um, since my last podcast interview, things are moving on with my corporate research partnership. Um, they've now decided to extend the scope. So previously I was going to be surveying just 50 of their remote and hybrid leaders. Now we're going to be surveying 2, 500 of them before taking 12 of their leaders through my program. Big evolution of how this is shaping up. I'll keep you posted on further developments. But for now, this conversation is really going to be delving into the connection that Wayne and Natalie have. I believe it's through a positive psychology association and what they're doing this year. This Christmas to help people feel connected, feel a little bit less lonely. Um, and I believe this is the second year that, uh, you two have been working on this collaboration together. So, um, Natalie, why don't you kick us off and let us know kind of how you've come together and, and what you're, what you're doing this Christmas that people might be interested to join you on.

Nathalie: 2:18

Sure. Well, first of all, thank you so much for hosting us on your podcast. I think we're both very delighted. I've known Wayne now, I think for three or four years, and we did meet through the Canadian Positive Psychology Association, which we're both a member of. And there was, um, an initiative to create some mastermind groups and that's how we connected. We're in the same mastermind group and we meet once a month virtually. And that was our connection. And then we've decided to, um, bring together our interests. So we both have different interests in positive psychology and therapy, in resilience, and to put it together to bring forward and bring to life, um, an online workshop to really help people who feel lonely over the Christmas period.

Shelley: 3:08

Thanks, Natalie. Wayne, do you want to tell us a little bit more about how, how it went last year? So last year was your, your, I guess your first, first attempt at this program. Uh, how was it received and yeah, what kind of feedback did you get that inspired you to say, yes, we want to do this again. Like we know that we are adding value to people's lives over this period that can be particularly challenging for some people.

Wayne: 3:31

Mm hmm. Well, last year, what we did is we did a lot of research on the topic, and the more research we did, the more we uncovered. There's several studies that I don't have the data in front of me, but that show that, uh, quite a large percentage of people have this difficulty over Christmas and, uh, and, you know, we discovered things like, like people who, uh, who may be Uh, surrounded by family, but feel lonelier than they are when they're on their own. Or people who go to a Christmas, uh, activities or stay with family and it turns into, uh, a huge conflict or different members of the family are, or, or people who, who don't have anybody to, to spend Christmas with and, and they feel very alone. Um, so those are just a few So, um, so we, we did a lot of research on, on that and we talked to a lot of people about what we were doing. And we had tremendous feedback from people in positive psychology. And from therapists and counselors, and so we didn't have, uh, we, we started quite late. So we didn't have an audience for the one last year, but we decided that because the, feedback was so powerful from people around us and people who, who, uh, had run into people in their daily lives who have this same response. We decided to offer it again and start much earlier with the Mark thing.

Shelley: 5:11

Beautiful. And Natalie, I was reading a bit about your, your history and you've come in from a very different direction. Um, I, I have kind of come into this in a similar way, working with big brands and PR and communications. So I would love to just know a little bit about that journey of kind of changing from career number one, uh, to really delving into a different kind of purpose led career.

Nathalie: 5:39

Sure. It's a good question, a bit, a bit different from loneliness, but it's a good question. And maybe I can find a segue into loneliness. Um, as you mentioned, uh, my, my first career was or is in marketing, in sales, in fast moving consumer goods. And I always loved the creativity behind it. I loved being able to bring my ideas to life. And I was not so much interested, I would say, with psychology or resilience. But then throughout my career, I did see a lot of my colleagues suffer and also the stress creeping up and always having to deliver more and being exhausted also by the end of the week. So I always had those questions in myself. Why are some colleagues actually going through a burnout and others are more resilient. And I was always interested into physical health, into nutrition, and also neurobiology. And when COVID hit, we were all at home and didn't have much to do, and the situation kind of repeated itself. So I was Quite comfortable at home because for once it was, it was me time that I had, um, whereas as opposed to people taking my time in a company, always, you know, putting meeting and having a lot of emails to respond to, I was able to have this extra time. But my friends were not seeing the situation the same way. They were more like desperate, all the bars or the restaurants are closed. We're really bored. And that led me to, okay, so some people seem to be more resilient than others. And can you teach that? And then I completely dived in into positive psychology and I opened my business around resilience. And the aim was first to, to be able to teach. resilience skills and evidence based resilient skills to people in workplace settings. Um, when, you know, you don't have control over everything that is happening to you, whether your boss, the demands and so on. So that was, that was one of the first, um, I would say entry point into positive psychology. And then if you, if we make a point or a segue into loneliness, I think sometimes, and also from the research, you can be surrounded by a lot of people and also colleagues, but not all connections. Transcripts are positive. They can actually suck up the energy from you and leave you more depleted. So, you know, you can be surrounded with hundred of your colleagues every day, but feel very lonely because maybe you don't share their values, or you don't actually have a connection, a positive connection and share the values, share common values which unite you. And that could be common to, um, workers, colleagues, but it could also be, you might be in a circle of friends and realize you've grown in a certain way and maybe your values have changed. And you don't actually feel maybe understood by those friends and then relationships can actually become negative, even though they were once positive. So that's a long segue from your original question, but yeah, that's a little bit more about my, myself.

Shelley: 8:48

No, that's beautiful. And honestly, Natalie, I'm seeing, um, at this stage in my life. So many brands kind of feeling like they're at a crossroads, like they've had one career and actually that isn't serving them anymore and they're feeling like they want to change direction and I myself have been on this journey for the last kind of three and a half years. It isn't easy and I think just that example of Uh, figuring out what you're interested in, the resilience and bringing that into your workplace. You don't need to jump ship immediately. It's like, how can you lean into a new career direction that is going to be more purpose led and thinking, you know, we've got still got quite a few years left to work. So thinking about doing something that's going to be a bit more nourishing. Thank you. And Wayne, you're a careers, careers advisor, is that correct? And how does, how does this work into, does this, are you helping kind of, um, people pivot their careers going into a different direction? I'd love to know more.

Wayne: 9:56

Yeah, I help people like and just like you were describing people who want to transition into another career or maybe they didn't have a choice and they were asked to leave or downsized or outplaced or whatever you want to call it. And, and the thing is, is that once you determine the role, which is really important in career transition is to really determine. Who you want to be in your next steps and once that's determined, then you have to go through a job search process and most of the steps in job search are all things that people have never done before. Um, you know, how often do you write a resume when you're in the middle of your career? You know and resumes have changed since people were 20 years ago or even 10 years ago And then and then the only way you can really find a new position is through networking And many people are very frightened of networking and uh, and so people have these areas where I I say I I say that they're stuck, but it's often procrastination. And, what I realized is that in my previous careers, I helped people to become resilient through difficult situations. And I started to think, you know, I can do the same thing here, because, um, if people have some practices that will help them to be more resilient, it means that when they get that, message saying they're rejected, you know, I had one person went for nine interviews for the same company and got rejected, when you get that notice, uh, if you have some practices you're doing that. Help to build resilience. You can, you can bounce back and you can keep going. And in order to land, uh, without taking even longer, uh, you need to have that resilience. And the same thing with interviews. I mean, interviews for some people are just so, so, um, frightening is not the right word, but, And, so I started to do more research on, on research of psychological resilience and for about the last two or three years. And then, um, I put together some, uh, uh, some training segments. that I included in my sessions with clients. But last year, over Christmas, I did some reflection and I realized it wasn't working. And so what I did is I built a course, um, it's like a course that teaches people these practices in resilience. And now when people work with me, they take 10 sessions. And so their first 10 weeks, they do 10 weeks of the, of the, regular career discernment and job search process. And then they do 10 weeks of learning different practices to build resilience. And it seems to be working. My hope is, is that, is that if they keep doing those practices during their job search, it helps them, To get through the process a little faster and to be less stressed. And the other part of it is the isolation and loneliness that Natalie was talking about. That when you're in a job search, you feel incredibly lonely. And what I've noticed is in this group, I hadn't really planned it for this purpose, but people seem to like to come together to To, uh, in that sense of connection, I think it's another method of building resilience and they look forward to it.

Shelley: 13:44

Mmm, and I love that you've both really delved deep into the the topic of resilience here And I wonder if there's just a few nuggets that you could give away to us Here that that you found have really helped your own journey to building your own personal resilience and maybe what really speaks to clients that you work with that people might be able to take away and start acting upon right away.

Nathalie: 14:15

It's a great question. Um, I think we could talk two hours on resilience. Resilience is, is, is a skill first of all, so that's the good news is that everyone can learn it. But you need to practice it. And it's multifaceted, meaning that what works for me might not work for you. And there are different components in it. Could be behavioral tools, could be cognitive tools. To me, because you asked about me, um, and it's going to sound very easy and simple, but I, it's the foundation. And when I work with, um, clients on, on, in therapy, I usually probe about sleep because sleep to me is a behavioral tool. If you don't sleep well, you're not going to be resilient. You're not going to be able to face all your emotions or to face what is coming your way and stress and so on. And it sounds. Easy. It sounds like, you know, our parents used to tell us you should just sleep more. And it's not easy when you, when you go into the details, it's not easy to sleep half an hour more, or, you know, somebody who wakes up very often during the night. It's not very easy because we're into habits and breaking habits takes a lot of time and also a lot of energy. But usually, when I have clients who sleep more, they're also much more able to regulate their emotions. And that, that's a big, big buzzword at the moment, emotions and so on. And it's true that, you know, we're not taught at school, what do we do with our emotions? How do we deal when we have anxiety? What does it mean? How does it feel like? Is it normal, not normal? And to be able to start doing this work of, Labeling the emotions we're feeling and then have a strategy. What do we do with it? Do we try to suppress it, which we're not supposed to do? Because usually it comes back even stronger. Do we reappraise it? Do we change the situation? And so on. We need to have some, what I would call mental energy. And for that, we need to have restful sleep, um, which is long enough and which is, um, going to give us the energy to deal with everything coming our way. So. I would say sleep really helped me a lot. And then also, um, emotion labeling and learning how to deal with the different emotions coming my way.

Shelley: 16:35

And allowing the emotions to come, because sometimes we, if we're feeling down, then we might want to have a drink or something else to try and suppress that feeling. So it's like, no, like honoring the feeling. And letting it, letting it like channel through us. Yeah. And what came through to me when you, when you mentioned about, we're not taught these things at school, like here in, uh, in Canada. And I don't know if this is the same over the world, but my children are now taught these things at school. Amazing. From a very, very early age. And I mean, there's movies like Inside Out as well, which are naming with characters linked to emotion. So. This feels like a huge development that our children are going to be much more connected with what emotions mean. I think I definitely can still teach my daughter resilience. Um, yeah, she gets upset very easily and will take herself away. So, yeah. Um, yeah, sleep, really good tip. Thank you. Wayne, anything from you, um, on resilience that's really worked for you or worked for your clients?

Wayne: 17:51

Yeah, I, I think that, uh, it is, all the, all the exercises or practices are, are very simple. Um, and so like, like Nathalie was saying, it, it, it, they seem so simple. So how can they be? beneficial, but they are. And one of the ones that I find helpful for myself is, is, uh, gratitude. And, and that's where you, uh, there's all kinds of different ways you can do it. But one of the things that I like to do is to, is to every morning to list Three things that I'm grateful for and why I'm grateful. And so I do a little mindfulness exercise, and then I identify those three things. And then what I usually do after that is set, uh, I set three intentions for the day. Doesn't, may not even be connected to the gratitudes, but it, it's, it's. It's positive thing ways I want to be in my life during that day and um, and I find clients find that too, that once they start listing gratitudes, that it just gives them a little bit of a, an edge on, on being able to, um, uh, well it gives them a, I guess it gives them a space. that allows them to choose how they want to react to different situations. And, um, and, uh, and then the other thing that I find is that is, is very well known is, is just, uh, doing mindfulness exercises. There's all kinds of different ones that you can do and whatever ones you like. I encourage clients to, to, to do something every day and maybe even more than once a day if they want. And, um, and once they it's like, um, resilience is kind of like a muscle and, and, and, and, you know, it's a lot like doing exercise at the gym. If, if you do it once, like if I teach my clients a particular practice and they do it once it and they don't do it again, it'll do about as much good as going to the gym once. And then expecting to be physically fit, you know, you have to go and you have to do it day after day and you have to practice it or playing the piano. You know, if you, you take a lesson in the piano, you're certainly not going to be up on the stage, you know, doing a performance. So it takes, it takes practice. And, but, but, uh, I haven't had a chance. client who has said that it isn't helpful, uh, and most clients say that it's incredibly helpful if they do these different practices, uh, and, and that it helps them to just keep going and persist in their job search.

Shelley: 20:41

So much there. Thank you so much, Wayne. A few things that are coming up for me, you said a couple of times now. About who you want to be. And this is quite different to, to kind of how I think of it. And I'm, I, I think we do lose ourselves somewhat. And particularly, um, When we are spending maybe three and a half hours every day on social media, we are, we're almost a slave, a voyeur, we are, we are losing peace of ourself. So, in, in my world, I'm, the terminology I would typically use is who, who are you? Or who am I? But I really felt this was an interesting nuance, like who do I want to be? Yeah, like not necessarily searching, but it's like intentional. Let's like lean into who I want to be,

Wayne: 21:36

right? For, for the work I do, that's, that's absolutely critical. Um, because the, the, when they're, when they're trying to determine their new direction. If they can, if they can determine what matters most to them, and they can determine what, uh, they're, they're naturally drawn to, and they can determine what they're good at, and find the intersection of those things. It'll give them some choices of who they choose to be, and the more they can Take that power and choose the career that they want to be and know why they want to do it, the more successful they'll be, and the more likely they will be to land in a role that they find they enjoy doing every day.

Nathalie: 22:30

And I also think that generally, we can be aligned so we can be who we are is who we want to be, and then things are well, but it could also be that who we are is not the person. we are aligned with in our future self because we might have evolved or our values might have changed. So we might be in a current job situation, but actually it's not fulfilling. So that's when we ask ourselves, who do I want to be? But if we're in a situation, cause I just want to put it out there that we're comfortable, we're fulfilled and we're flourishing, then who we are is who we want to be. And that's okay. So there's no need to, there's no need to always try to search to be a different person if we're already fulfilled. If that makes sense,

Shelley: 23:15

totally. Yes. Thank you. So let's delve a little bit deeper into what is coming up with your Christmas program, your journey to joy. So I guess who, who do you expect would want to come to this and, and maybe just give me a little bit of a glimpse into what the, what the offer is and how many touch points people will get if they come on this journey to joy with you this Christmas? So many questions

Nathalie: 23:49

Um, okay. Let me let me try and give a little overview like who's gonna come I think anyone let's be honest because Marketing we should be targeting a specific person and so on but let's be let's face it. We can all be lonely. We can be 18 year olds be going At first year at university still haven't made some strong connections of friends from school might have moved on and we can still feel lonely and we can be 80 year old and our friends have gone. Maybe we don't have so many family members. We might not be so much mobile to go to events. And maybe an online gathering is what we need. So, generally speaking, whoever feels the need for it is invited to come to our workshop. And, I, I don't, you can be sick, you can be not sick, you might want to learn new skills as well, you might want to change your current, um, connections and relationships, and want to see, um, how, how is that possible, and learn new skills. So that's about, you know, who is this for? And I don't know, Wayne, you want to explain a little bit more, um, the actual workshop, what we are going to do over the, um, 10 days or more that we're going to meet?

Wayne: 24:59

Yeah, we, well, we'll be, we'll be meeting with people several times over the holiday season. And we specifically chose to do that because, um, there are other programs around where, where people can learn these skills, but, but it's not during the holiday season and And it's a mixture of both practice and learning, so it's gonna be, uh, both. Yeah, learning and experiential. And, uh, and so each session we'll be talking about a different, uh, approach or a different practice, um, uh, that, that people can use and, and we'll have a chance to be, uh, for people to connect. Uh, one of the things about the way we want to lead it is we want to be strong in content and light and spirit. And so that people will, uh, enjoy, enjoy, uh, meeting with each other. And so even just the sense of connection they get from being with each other will be huge in building a sense of resilience in addition to the practices that they learn while they're there. And it, I think it will also give people a sense of You know, they can look forward from one session to the other session to coming together and meeting and that will help them as well. But then they'll also leave with some skills that they can take, not just for Christmas, but Through other aspects of their lives that will be really valuable.

Shelley: 26:26

I'm a Girl Guide leader. And one of the leaders said, um, yesterday, Oh yeah, it's coming up to the really busy time of year. Like there's so much going on. And, um, like I've got two young children. So I agree. There's going to be lots of things that just happen to be happening without me actively seeking what's going on. But for a lot of people, That's not. The reality, and they'll see lots of busy people and see lots and then events maybe go like clubs might close down for a few weeks over the Christmas holiday. So I think this is just such a beautiful offering to say, this is literally over the Christmas period when you might not have a lot going on, and something that you can start to get to know people and I don't know how many events there are but yeah over you know, Over even just one or two events, you can start to build those connections and expect to see each other. And maybe if somebody doesn't turn up to one of the sessions, the following one, you might inquire as to why they weren't there. And then they can feel missed. Like people were actually. like wondering about them and what a beautiful thing that is.

Nathalie: 27:36

We'll have four sessions. So we'll have four live sessions around one hour, 60 minutes each, where we will actually be doing this mixture of experiential exercise and also creating a safe space for people to meet and exchange and talk about what's going on. And To go into a bit of details of the exercise, we'll have some classical positive psychology exercises, you know, knowing your strength and so on. But what's important to say is connection is also a two way street, but it starts with ourselves. So we also have to know what brings me joy. What are my values? You know, what am I looking for? Because we can be in a group of people that are, like we said at the beginning, they're not actually bringing us something. So We also have to do the work that inner work to decide, you know, not who's the person I want to be. That's another question. But like, what brings me joy tomorrow? What's going to bring me joy tomorrow? And sometimes, like you mentioned, we're so much on social media and every day, you know, like circle and everything is spinning around us, we don't take time to sit down and just reflect five minutes. How did the day go? And what was good in the day? What was not so good? And actually those little moments of self reflection is what is going to help us to build those connections and those meaningful connections. So the exercise are going to be a mixture of, um, psychology and positive psychology exercise to get to know what brings us joy, but also to help and facilitate connections with one another and to have a safe, safe space to be able to exchange.

Shelley: 29:17

It sounds like a beautiful thing. I'm so happy to have this on my radar and just the more I hear about initiatives that people are feeling cool to launch, um, when they're seeing a need in society for it. I just wanna just congratulate you guys for, for moving forward. You know, a lot of people have a lot of ideas and they don't always execute on them. I'm hands up by one of those people. I do a lot of things, but there's also a lot that I don't do that I write down and it sound. Brilliant, but don't come to fruition. So well done for, for doing this and for putting, you know, yourself out there during this time, um, when a lot of people do take a bit of time off work and you're going to be working through it. So well done.

Nathalie: 29:59

It's a joy. It's a joy. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.

Shelley: 30:02

Me too. Great. And is there anything that we, that we haven't touched on today that you think I'd really love to be able to share this while I have this platform and space? Um, whether it's about your, you know, you personally, your project together, or just something else that's coming to you that you feel called to share.

Nathalie: 30:22

I want to share or build on something that we did not talk about is that I don't want to throw out the idea that somebody needs to have 50 people around them to be happy and to feel connected. And there's also a difference between solitude and loneliness. So solitude is a chosen, chosen way to be alone, and it's actually needed. It's like when we're practicing mindfulness, We have to be alone or when we're going into flow. We choose to be alone. It's something chosen And it's not because we spend a friday night at home alone that there's something wrong with us So I we talk a lot about loneliness. It's not so good for health. It's not good for physical health mental health and so on But loneliness is when we actually feel that we're not connected with one person So we can just have one person in the world and that's sufficient and we don't need to have You 20 people around us. And I think it's important to know the distinction because it's not, it doesn't mean that it's not normal. So that was, that was important for me to put it out there as well for your audience.

Shelley: 31:28

Thanks, Natalie. And I think from you, Wayne.

Wayne: 31:32

I think, Natalie said, very well. I guess what I, I hear more than anything is, uh, amongst people that I know is, um, is that I'm. With a group of people and I feel very alone and, and, uh, being on your own. It's just what Natalie was saying. Being on your own doesn't mean that you are feeling alone. I think, I'm hoping that when people leave this session, they'll, they'll start to realize that they can be comfortable, um, on their own.

Shelley: 32:10

And, and just as a build to that, I think that piece about getting to know yourself can mean that when you are in company, you are More able to be that version of you that you feel that you are inside. And sometimes you might leave an interaction with an individual or a group of people feeling unsatisfied because you weren't yourself. And that's not necessarily on them. It's kind of, we do need to do that inner work to figure out who we are and who we want to be. And the kind of conversations that we want to be leading or. contributing to that does kind of speak to our own curiosity and maybe just that word curiosity, like, uh, I'm just about to tomorrow start a two week social media disconnection, um, which I've toyed with, uh, often I haven't done two weeks before. And for me, this is going to be a big time saver. I've got a keyboard here that I play a little bit that I'm hoping to delve into a bit deeper. I've got sewing that needs to be done and just spending a bit of time reconnecting with myself and also sending more personal emails, personal messages to people that I have in my. Like wider spheres of my life that I don't tend to connect with on a one to one basis. Maybe it's just more of a message, um, or a comment on, on a social media platform. So yeah, so this is my, this is my kind of going deep, disconnecting to reconnect, um, watch this space. Have either of you ever tried a disconnect or do you, are you active on social media?

Wayne: 33:59

I, I, I, I had digital detox Saturdays. And I put my phone and I put my laptop in a drawer and I close it. It doesn't come out until the next morning. And it is the best change I ever made in my life. I feel so refreshed on Monday, or on Sunday. And, um, and it just gives me a chance to do just what you're saying. You know, just to, just to have time, uh, solitude. Some time to myself and to, and to reflect on what I want and where I'm going. Amen. Those kinds of things. Go for a walk, enjoy nature, and I don't have to carry the phone and feel like I'm a prisoner to my phone. I know it's a dream, but

Shelley: 34:46

Do you feel like the day lasts longer?

Wayne: 34:50

No, you know what? Strangely enough, I sometimes feel like it goes by very fast. I don't know why. I think it's because I'm doing things that I really love doing and I become immersed in them and time just is gone. You know, I think, oh my gosh, where did Saturday go?

Shelley: 35:11

Amazing. Oh, good for you, Wayne. And how long have you been doing that ritual?

Wayne: 35:15

I guess, um, I started it in the middle of COVID and, uh, yeah. So a

Shelley: 35:22

good few years. Yeah. It's

Wayne: 35:24

just a great feeling. When I first started it, I honestly felt like I was giving up a limb.

Shelley: 35:30

Yes.

Wayne: 35:32

Because, you know, the phone, you keep looking at it. Did I get any messages today? And so the first few times it was really hard. I, I, I said, well, I'll take it with me and I won't look at it. Didn't work, had to, had to put it in a drawer and close the drawer and uh, but now I can't wait. I can't wait. I love working with my clients. I love doing the work I do, but I can't wait for Saturday to put those devices away and close the drawer.

Shelley: 36:02

Love it. How about you Natalie? Have you toyed with digital detoxes yourself?

Nathalie: 36:08

No, I have a different relationship. I'm really good. Um, and I really enjoy, um, Social media, I think I would call it social media. I make a distinction between my phone, emails, and social media. I learn a lot personally on social media and I think I also choose what I want to see. I feel in control, let's put it this way, and I, it's, it's bringing me joy, but then I also have to say one of my strengths is self regulation. So it's, it's quite easy for me to stop and not stop. And then there's, there's a habit I have. My phone is always on mute, so you can never reach me, but I choose when I want to be reached. So I will put it on, on mute for an hour or two during the day. And that's when I'll get to my calls. And so I think. Yeah, I, I don't need to have the detox. It's more about Netflix in my case. I have to maybe stop watching Netflix, but no social media. I think I'm quite good with it. And I really enjoy when I'm learning because I'm learning through it. I see different pieces of research. I see, I can listen to podcasts. I learn new things. It actually gets me into flow a little bit because then I'm searching some topics, learning new things for my clients. So no, I, maybe I, but I don't, I don't actually answer even private calls on weekends. So, but that's kind of my detox. I know it's very,

Shelley: 37:32

very nice. You've got some really healthy boundaries. And that's, that's where I think a lot of these digital detoxes try to get to. So it's like, you're almost on the other side of what this process is designed to help us get to.

Wayne: 37:47

I'm heading in that direction.

Nathalie: 37:52

But it goes to a point that I get text messages from my parents, like, We haven't heard from you in four days. And I'm like, Oh yeah, it's because, you know, at the end of the day, I see the 10 missed calls and I'm like, no, I'm not going to answer any of those. And then I forget about it. And then the days goes and then, you know, I just forget about it. I'm like, if it's important, people will ring back and it's just, you know, yeah, it's my thing. I don't know if it's really good because you know, if friends needs you, then you're not available. But if you text me SOS, I usually call back within a few hours. So I think my friends.

Shelley: 38:24

Okay, so that piece, I guess, maybe family members of the don't know that already know they will after they see this and something that I'm toying with, um, is there's a fantastic platform called spatial chat. And it's just, it's different to zoom because it's just got a different backdrop you're much smaller, kind of on the screen I've hosted small kind of friendship. Group events there for a while. What I'm testing at the moment is connection hours. So just putting a couple of hours in my diary, um, each week and letting people know that that's where I'll be. Almost like thinking in the real world, oh, there's a local cafe that I'm going to be at on a Monday and Wednesday morning. And if you want to see me like drop in and like, that's where you can connect with me. The, I guess the only thing that might be putting some people off is the idea that there might be other people in the space, which that's real life, you know, it's kind of like the old days when you used to drop in on your friend and just knock on the front door and maybe there was somebody else there and they'd be like, Oh, hey. So I'm, I'm testing this in my own life at the moment to see how it feels. And I wonder if that might be a neat test for you, Natalie, if you've got people, they want to connect in with you. And it's like just saying like allocating an hour here or there. So you can have that. I like that.

Nathalie: 39:48

Yeah. I like that very much. It's like when we used to have offices, like back in the days when there were no open space, if we were, you know, a leader. We could close the door and that meant we're not available. And then we could open the door and then anyone who had a question could come in. So that's kind of similar the way you're explaining. So that's intriguing. I'll check it out.

Shelley: 40:06

Yeah. And actually you can have multiple rooms. You could have a room for one to one. So if somebody came and you're like, actually, this is a sensitive conversation. Let's go to another room, which I haven't invited other people to come to. So, yeah. Interesting, right? Yeah. We have to try it

Nathalie: 40:23

out.

Shelley: 40:26

Well, Wayne and Natalie, it's been a delight, uh, thank you for your patience with my three way interview style, as this is brand new to me. Um, it's been really wonderful to get to know a bit, a bit about you and a bit about this beautiful, uh, initiative that you've got going on. I look forward to following it and sharing this with the people that I know and love, um, to see if, you know, somebody within our wider connections might want to join you on this journey at Christmas.

Wayne: 40:55

Thanks very much. Pleasure to be here.

Nathalie: 40:58

Yeah, it was lovely and it's very lively to do an interview three way. And we're very grateful that we're able to talk about our workshop journey to joy and to be able also to share with your followers. So thank you so much for the invitation, Shelly.